Wormholes

Totally correct rolling scanning sorting warp ins scouting will drop my figure by a huge amount. Its just really hard to factor that in isk wise.

Still doesn't change the fundamentals. Equipment is at risk from other players the moment you 1) Give more than one person access to the same SMA 2) Give more than one person access to the same hanger/POS. You can't just "put new players in a POS by themselves" as they are just as likely to steal from each other as the corp thus making your recruitment just as difficult.

Moving up a hole isn't always feasible either depending on the skill level of the pilots. We run two holes, a C2/C1+HS for newer pilots or those looking for easy PI/PvP/HS access and a C4/C3+C5 for the more experienced pilots. It does take a relatively significant amount of training for a new EVE player to live in C2 effectively. To farm C1 sites, etc. requires a base set of skills. Take into account that you probably start running sites with corpmates, your income is abysmal but still in many cases a step up from whatever L1/2/3 missions they could be doing in K-space. It takes another significant training period to then work up to being able to run C3/C4 sites, or mine gas in the C5, or whatever else is more profitable for them in the higher level wormhole. Try recruiting "newer" players into a C4 hole when they can't do anything solo. It doesn't work. The only way to change that is to get the numbers high enough so there is always someone to run with but now we're right back at the POS security issue and how do you recruit to get to those numbers...

So assuming you use the fits Corbexx used, how many hours would you have to spend in sites for each wormhole class in order to make enough isk to break even when the inevitable gank gets you?

This is all very depressing to see. The numbers are hard to argue with, and despite agreeing that more data should be gathered, at a glance, its clear that most sites aren't worth the risk of running them. Adding in logistics overhead, scanning, scouting, and hauling, and there's really no point to running sites anywhere besides maybe C3 space.

The big issue I'm seeing is that low class space doesn't actually have anything unique to offer wormhole space. There's no gimmicks or interesting traits unique to low class space to make up for the fact that the isk is ****.

In my opinion, sleeper sites should not just linearly scale with system class. That fails to take into account the realities of the space, and does nothing but discourage most people from living places like a C1. Every wormhole system should have something that makes it special or desirable. If not sleepers, then something else. More gas maybe? Better hacking/data sites? Something new and sparkly? The systems themselves should prevent a largely uniform playing field, with things like position and type of celestials, wormhole connections, and things of that nature dictating why a system would be chosen to be occupied. The first question that goes through someone's head when considering where to live should not be 'how much money can I make' and 'how much money can my static(s) make me, but should be based on a more complicated set of factors. As it stands, my C2 system is less profitable then level 4s, for infinitely more risk. What is the ******* point?

This seems like a horribly PVE-focused view to me. Hunting solo in wormhole space provides quality entertainment for hours, and if that fails, find a lowsec exit?

Except that presumably, every anom cleared is reappearing elsewhere thus creating sites/content for others. The issue with wormhole space to a degree with this model is that anoms get "stuck" in what we call "goldmine" systems where there is little to no activity and no one running sites in them where they build up until there are dozens. Great when you find one but others it diminishes the pool of anoms. Whether that is a true problem only CCP and their stats could tell us

Don't remember if it still works, but corp/personal hangar bay + SMA + LSAA/XLSAA allows for 6 people to live in a POS and pretty much prevents everything from being stolen. If you have 20 uniques, that's 3 POS and change.

I don't know why in the world you would have a C1 static because that's literally cancer and new members could easily run C2s in ~14d or less. If you really want them to make money then have them run C3s in Drakes with a Scythe/2 Ospreys there to rep them. Even with more people in fleet it's probably better income than a C1.

Mining gas effectively in a C5 takes ~1 week, and the majority of that training time is the get T2 gas harvesters. You can do it in less time and still make good money. Unless you're saying a week is a significant training period...

You can recruit them into a C4 when they can go solo C2 sites or take a few corpies and solo C3s. If you're poaching newbies from starter systems, then I could see it being a problem, but if you're lifting people from mission hubs then they'll probably have some base skills that will allow them to easily run C2s with slightly modified fits.

There're solutions available that don't require changes to POSes, but I guess complaining is always easier than taking action.

I have just checked my main spread sheet and for perimeter camps i get higher than 2.8 to 2.9 even using them number they are still by far the best, so that makes me happy.

yeah having tohave more scouts etc will lower it. hyperion also makes it potentially worse with more wh's added

Sure. And when I find a goldmine, I warp to every sig and anomaly in the system to start their countdowns, since I know I can't possibly clear them all.

However, what matters isn't the rate at which you flush sites, it's the rate at which others flush sites that then land in your chain. Nobody is going to stay logged in, on the off chance that a site will appear 3 hours from now because another corp in another hole in your constellation happened to clear a site.

As such, I think the math is pretty close to the "every site gets run once per 24 hours" as an approximation, which still leaves us with lower class holes that cannot reliably support enough players to be worth the costs. We essentially have 11% of the game's systems with enough income to support less than 4% of the game's population. (Average of 25k logged-in players) And by support, I mean "takes 12+ hours of solo play to replace the ship used to run the content" which is itself a terrible metric.

L4 highsec missions are easily run in T2-fit battleships worth 400M or so, and as such, the replacement time is ~10 hours with near zero risk. This completely ignores blitzing strategies which make these even more lucrative.

Even undisturbed, C2 sites should return a better reward than that.

Agreed. We did, I think, 12 C1 sites this weekend in one system with a trio (though it really only needed to be a duo as the two of us who started the run had done this same thing a couple nights before. The third guy was extraneous to the rate of clearing) and pulled 180M total in 90 minutes. Say it was two people, 90M for 90 minutes is about 60M/hr so we're seeing numbers on par with what I described.