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Do smaller entities really deserve more empowerment?
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Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#101 - 2014-09-20 11:27:09 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


If done correctly you can make a lot of isk from renting with minimal risk which is why so many do.

Why go through all pain and heart ache of trying to create an alliance that is capable of taking Sov by force knowing that your chances of success are minuscule when in just the fraction of time and with the minimal of effort you can rent?

You can blame the players as much as you like but it was CCP that created Sov Mechanics, all that has happened is that players have taken it to the logical conclusion.



To answer your points one by one:

- If done correctly....: Thats the part that goes into the wrong direction. 'Correctly' implies there is but one way to play eve - and eve has always been more than just isk for many a gamer - especially the ones who purposely dont join the big corporations/alliances.

- Why go through....: Because thats what it is all about actually - to create your own footstamp somewhere in the universe. You might be right about the probability of failure - so what? The process of doing it is the thing that matters. If the result happens - even better. The sov mechanics where blaimed back when BoB was THE enemy and the same talk continues for years - its nothing but a bad excuse to blame CCP for a wrong mechanic. The rulers of old times where not popular for the others - now its you not being popular anymore since you do exactly the same as they did back then (and you all despised the others for doing it btw). I am reading this famous 'we deliver content' - its not you that need to deliver it - you are the content that can and should be battled.

- CCP never created the idea of static coalitions - thats where the failure is. NAPS happened back then and will also in the future. If the players are content with how it is now - you have nothing to fear. If they are not - then its obviously up to them to push for changes. That can be by changing their own attitude and behaviour or by pushing CCP to make changes to the status quo.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Django Askulf
Black Rebel Death Squad
#102 - 2014-09-20 11:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Django Askulf
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a small group, why would you want to own SOV anyway? What is the point? Having your name on the map?


Possibly to enjoy the use of jump bridges, or build outposts (which are one of the marks a player can leave that is permanent, as of now) I know I sure would rather see smaller groups owning SOV, instead of all staying in low, NPC null, or becoming renters.


Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
The only problem I see in the future is that assets are unlikely to ever fall into the hands of lesser entities.


Wouldnt that be the point of empowering the little guys, in the first place?
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-09-20 11:49:17 UTC
Django Askulf wrote:
Possibly to enjoy the use of jump bridges, or build outposts (which are one of the marks a player can leave that is permanent, as of now) I know I sure would rather see smaller groups owning SOV, instead of all staying in low, NPC null, or becoming renters.



there are less stressfull ways to achieve both things. Leaving a mark in EVE by building an outpost is kinda blah. For example, some of the outposts in Feythabolis were done by an alliance that many don't know the name anymore.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Django Askulf
Black Rebel Death Squad
#104 - 2014-09-20 11:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Django Askulf
Grimpak wrote:

there are less stressfull ways to achieve both things. Leaving a mark in EVE by building an outpost is kinda blah. For example, some of the outposts in Feythabolis were done by an alliance that many don't know the name anymore.


Everyone plays Eve differently. For some, they go nuts over PVP'n in frigs. Its pretty "blah" to me. There was a time I would get a hardon, at the thought of dropping an egg. I dont care as much anymore, but I sure wouldnt turn the chance down.

Edit: Also to add, people may not know the alliance's name nowdays, but whoever dropped it might get a little joy, everytime they look at dotlan, and see what they once accompished. Doesnt matter what others think.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2014-09-20 12:50:12 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a small group, why would you want to own SOV anyway? What is the point? Having your name on the map?


Because they have to start somewhere. A lot of serious power and it's projection are tied to holding sov.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2014-09-20 13:14:25 UTC
Django Askulf wrote:
[quote=Grimpak]Edit: Also to add, people may not know the alliance's name nowdays, but whoever dropped it might get a little joy, everytime they look at dotlan, and see what they once accompished. Doesnt matter what others think.



eh, considering I was there when they dropped the first outpost (I don't even know if Cyvok plays anymore or if Celestial Horizon or Dirty Deeds Corp are still active), it all feels a bit like useless nostalgia.Straight

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Neven Cengari
Perkone
Caldari State
#107 - 2014-09-20 15:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Neven Cengari
Prince Kobol wrote:
Neven Cengari wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Just a small example of how silly things of gotten in null sec.

A couple of night ago during a large fight in BR you had both PL and NC. sitting on a Provi Ihub.

PL were repping it and NC. shooting it, at no point did PL or NC engage each other.

CVA then arrived on grid and caught a NC Broadsword which PL saved.

For me personally I find no enjoyment in what is basically a fixed fight.


Except that the outcome of this particular fight was HERO winning it by sheer tenacity. Not exactly the 'fixed' result that was expected.



Lol... you sure about that

Well, seeing as how we have a timer to attend to tomorrow as a result, yeah, I am pretty sure. BNI killed the i Hub and put the station into final RF mode.

I didn't post to try and pick a fight with you; actually I agree with just about every point you've made in this thread. Just, this particular fight - or at least the way it ended - is not a good example of Sov Null stagnation since it went contrary to the script.
Prince Kobol
#108 - 2014-09-20 16:04:57 UTC
Neven Cengari wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Neven Cengari wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Just a small example of how silly things of gotten in null sec.

A couple of night ago during a large fight in BR you had both PL and NC. sitting on a Provi Ihub.

PL were repping it and NC. shooting it, at no point did PL or NC engage each other.

CVA then arrived on grid and caught a NC Broadsword which PL saved.

For me personally I find no enjoyment in what is basically a fixed fight.


Except that the outcome of this particular fight was HERO winning it by sheer tenacity. Not exactly the 'fixed' result that was expected.



Lol... you sure about that

Well, seeing as how we have a timer to attend to tomorrow as a result, yeah, I am pretty sure. BNI killed the i Hub and put the station into final RF mode.

I didn't post to try and pick a fight with you; actually I agree with just about every point you've made in this thread. Just, this particular fight - or at least the way it ended - is not a good example of Sov Null stagnation since it went contrary to the script.


The only reason HERO was able to put the iHub into RF was because PL re-appeared and decided to aid HERO after leaving the field. If it wasn't for PL then Provi Block would of saved the iHub.

PL went from saving the IHub to helping HERO RF IHub because they were trying to get good fights, they couldn't less about Provi Block or HERO.

Hence my problem with this particular war. It isn't a war, its just simply NC and PL bored and trying to generate fights because their members are bored and are using Provi block and HERO as their own personal tools.



Hoshi
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#109 - 2014-09-21 12:00:17 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

The only reason HERO was able to put the iHub into RF was because PL re-appeared and decided to aid HERO after leaving the field. If it wasn't for PL then Provi Block would of saved the iHub.

PL went from saving the IHub to helping HERO RF IHub because they were trying to get good fights, they couldn't less about Provi Block or HERO.

Hence my problem with this particular war. It isn't a war, its just simply NC and PL bored and trying to generate fights because their members are bored and are using Provi block and HERO as their own personal tools.

I dont' agree that PL was a deciding factor here other than indirectly, at that time they had a 30 man Muninn gang in a system with over 400 in local and that Munin gang shoot both sides equally. What they did have was a very important indirect effect and that was that Proviblock did not dare to keep their capitals on field with PL active in the system, HERO decided to take a gamble and yolo their capitals in spite of PL. This time the gamble payed of but 2 days later a similar gamble did not turn out so well: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2gzyvh/pl_support_for_proviblock_in_which_we_get/

But I do agree that that is the crux of the matter, when we drop capitals the major deciding factor is not if Proviblock the enemy we are actually fighting will try to kill them but who might come and third party them. Something is seriously wrong when major tactical decisions are not dependent on what the enemy you are fighting are doing but what someone completely unrelated to the fight and living several regions away might do.

"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Prince Kobol
#110 - 2014-09-21 12:17:54 UTC
Hoshi wrote:

I dont' agree that PL was a deciding factor here other than indirectly, at that time they had a 30 man Muninn gang in a system with over 400 in local and that Munin gang shoot both sides equally. What they did have was a very important indirect effect and that was that Proviblock did not dare to keep their capitals on field with PL active in the system, HERO decided to take a gamble and yolo their capitals in spite of PL. This time the gamble payed of but 2 days later a similar gamble did not turn out so well: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2gzyvh/pl_support_for_proviblock_in_which_we_get/


Fair enough.

Hoshi wrote:

But I do agree that that is the crux of the matter, when we drop capitals the major deciding factor is not if Proviblock the enemy we are actually fighting will try to kill them but who might come and third party them. Something is seriously wrong when major tactical decisions are not dependent on what the enemy you are fighting are doing but what someone completely unrelated to the fight and living several regions away might do.


Completely agree
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#111 - 2014-09-21 16:00:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a small group, why would you want to own SOV anyway? What is the point? Having your name on the map?


Because they have to start somewhere. A lot of serious power and it's projection are tied to holding sov.



Except corps won't let you get a foothold as you may become a threat to them later. Better to deal with a potential problem when it's small.

Might not lead to more fun, but it is a more natural approach.
Prince Kobol
#112 - 2014-09-21 17:48:36 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
spew


Whilst everything you wrote is technically true it's all crap, why, because none of it addresses human nature.

We have seen time and again in Eve that the majority players will take the path of least resistance.

When it comes to Sov you can either rent, take by force or plant a few spies and try to steal yet that still requires a force capable of holding it.

When you take into consideration what it takes to create and maintain an alliance that is capable of taking and holding Sov by force and what rewards that brings to simply renting the of course the vast majority will rent.

The fact is at no other point in the 11 years of Eve's life have we ever had 2 forces of the size we have now, in both pilots and Capital Fleet.

You can try and argue it as much as you like but it doesn't change the fact that it is next to impossible to create force from scratch to take on either force
Snupe Doggur
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2014-09-21 18:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Snupe Doggur
Pookoko wrote:
I....I made a choice to stick with a small group and we know our boundaries. Of course it is fun to test & push these boundaries, sometimes with very satisfying success and sometimes with lol-fail.

But at the end of the day, despite the amount of times me and my corpies have been stomped by larger entity, eve has always been fair. In hindsight, there was almost always something we could have done differently to get better result out of the situation, maybe not out right 'win', but accomplish something within our limited resources to the degree that we can be satisfied with.

And we came out on top on certain occasions too against all the odd. And it was hugely satisfying. And it is this process of figuring out how to overcome the odds that is the fun part of the game (although we've bullied even weaker corps and players too before, and that too was fun).

I feel that nowadays there are many more tools and options for smaller groups to achieve something and enjoy themselves.

Crius expansion vastly increased production capacity of small industrial corp, Orca boosts that made mining boosts available in hi-sec, the much complained about links actually can be seen as empowering smaller gang to match a larger gang, frigates and cruiser buffs that turned a relatively cheap T1 gangs into a viable force, wormholes that opened up new space free of sov mechanics, incursions that help dedicated PvE players to generate more isk income than ever before, etc, etc, etc.

Yet people are still complaining and saying that small guys have no chance. And yes, I'm complaining that people are complaining. :p

What do you guys think?

tl;dr You walked to school uphill, both ways. You found a niche, so anyone can.

"Fair" and "deserve" are player-oriented framings. In the second decade of EVE, CCP doesn't have enough players, and says it needs not only to retain a player base, but to grow a larger one. What you and I think is just is going to take a back seat, sometimes, to what CCP thinks it has to do.

The players who weren't as lucky as you were, who didn't fall in with a good gang of players skilled enough to defend a niche and to recruit new members as needed, are going to need other incentives. What CCP does in the coming years may not strike us as "fair.," but unless you and I are willing to sub a lot more paying accounts, we're going to have to adapt to a changing game.

You know, the way we always have.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#114 - 2014-09-21 18:53:19 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a small group, why would you want to own SOV anyway? What is the point? Having your name on the map?


Because they have to start somewhere. A lot of serious power and it's projection are tied to holding sov.



Except corps won't let you get a foothold as you may become a threat to them later. Better to deal with a potential problem when it's small.

Might not lead to more fun, but it is a more natural approach.

especially when you are the kind of alliance that whips your slaves back and forth

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Aakkonen
Yoyodyne Industries
#115 - 2014-09-21 19:03:48 UTC
Hmm.. well Null can house very big population but the sov is problem, I live in Wh and I can go almost anywhere in new eden thx to current spawn mechanic. 90% of all null systems I visited have been dead empty, full of sites and riches, but no-one in them...

Its sad that few mega coalitions owns almost 90% of conquerable Null. still most of the systems are dead empty. I'm not starting a flame war here to say like forced pve to keep sov. but sov needs some balancing and super caps especially.

Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#116 - 2014-09-21 19:07:26 UTC
Aakkonen wrote:
Hmm.. well Null can house very big population but the sov is problem, I live in Wh and I can go almost anywhere in new eden thx to current spawn mechanic. 90% of all null systems I visited have been dead empty, full of sites and riches, but no-one in them...

Its sad that few mega coalitions owns almost 90% of conquerable Null. still most of the systems are dead empty. I'm not starting a flame war here to say like forced pve to keep sov. but sov needs some balancing and super caps especially.

Have a lot of experience with supercaps that you can share from your wormhole perspective?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Aakkonen
Yoyodyne Industries
#117 - 2014-09-21 19:11:33 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Aakkonen wrote:
Hmm.. well Null can house very big population but the sov is problem, I live in Wh and I can go almost anywhere in new eden thx to current spawn mechanic. 90% of all null systems I visited have been dead empty, full of sites and riches, but no-one in them...

Its sad that few mega coalitions owns almost 90% of conquerable Null. still most of the systems are dead empty. I'm not starting a flame war here to say like forced pve to keep sov. but sov needs some balancing and super caps especially.

Have a lot of experience with supercaps that you can share from your wormhole perspective?



I have only flown normal caps in null and in wh. carriers mostly but supercaps are out of line imho.

Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#118 - 2014-09-22 10:09:23 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a small group, why would you want to own SOV anyway? What is the point? Having your name on the map?


Because they have to start somewhere. A lot of serious power and it's projection are tied to holding sov.



Except corps won't let you get a foothold as you may become a threat to them later. Better to deal with a potential problem when it's small.

Might not lead to more fun, but it is a more natural approach.


And this creates the chicken-egg scenario Prince Kobol pointed out. After 11 years of empire building you'll have a hard time convincing people throwing sticks and stones at the Great Wall of China is somehow relevant.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#119 - 2014-09-22 10:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Aftermath
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a small group, why would you want to own SOV anyway? What is the point? Having your name on the map?


Because they have to start somewhere. A lot of serious power and it's projection are tied to holding sov.



Except corps won't let you get a foothold as you may become a threat to them later. Better to deal with a potential problem when it's small.

Might not lead to more fun, but it is a more natural approach.


And this creates the chicken-egg scenario Prince Kobol pointed out. After 11 years of empire building you'll have a hard time convincing people throwing sticks and stones at the Great Wall of China is somehow relevant.



If a corp. gained a foothold, they wouldn't be much of a threat, until either the two main alliances were at war, or they joined one of the alliances.

Either way they still remain a potential threat.
Prince Kobol
#120 - 2014-09-22 11:14:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a small group, why would you want to own SOV anyway? What is the point? Having your name on the map?


Because they have to start somewhere. A lot of serious power and it's projection are tied to holding sov.



Except corps won't let you get a foothold as you may become a threat to them later. Better to deal with a potential problem when it's small.

Might not lead to more fun, but it is a more natural approach.


And this creates the chicken-egg scenario Prince Kobol pointed out. After 11 years of empire building you'll have a hard time convincing people throwing sticks and stones at the Great Wall of China is somehow relevant.



If a corp. gained a foothold, they wouldn't be much of a threat, until either the two main alliances were at war, or they joined one of the alliances.

Either way they still remain a potential threat.


First off you would need an alliance, not a corp. Secondly, in what way is a alliance going to be a threat to either entity?

You think you can just put together an alliance consisting of a few thousand pilots, Capital Fleet, Logistic backbone, enough isk reserve to fund SRP for a prolong war + fuel + structures + few other hundred things you need, live in NPC Null or Low sec without anybody taking notice?

Where exactly are you going to get all these pilots + ships + isk + FC's from?

Another thing, at what point can an alliance become a threat now? At what stage does a alliance have to be at before either entity consider it to be threat?

Lets use HERO as example, do you think HERO are a real threat to either CFC of N3?

Of course they are not. So if HERO are not a threat then how powerful do you have to be before you can be considered a threat and how the hell can even get to that size?

On top of all of this thanks to the way Sov Mechanics work along with Power Projection the defending force has all the time in the world to counter your insignificance force.

Remember, these guys have hundreds of Capital Ships + pilots, amazing logistical routes and cyno's everywhere. Unless you can somehow put together a pretty sizeable Capital Fleet you would not stand a chance.

Of course lots of things are possible but are they realistic..