Wormholes

I live and love C2s, and roll my eyes at the "It's Too Risky!" posts.

No, it's not.

*snip* Profanity isn't allowed. Your OP title has been edited aswell. You are welcome to change the edit, however any further use of profanity will end this discussion. - ISD Cyberdyne

Here, let me show my work. This example assumes a C2-C2/Whatever inhabited by 1 pilot (only). Add 5M to end totals if you want to assume a scan alt). All partial numbers are rounded up, and assume the worst possible site blue goo drops. PI/POS fuel numbers are exaggerated

Figures for this post:

Battlecruiser: 100M fully fitted ( site BC+PVP BC 200M)
Salvage Catalyst: 5M
Scanning Frigate: 5M
Epithal: 5M
Iteron Mark V: 10M
POS Fuel: 10M/day

Income:

PI: 10M/day
Anomaly: 8M with 1 Ribbon (12M with 2)
Not gonna touch Reaction farming, gas huffing, ore mining in this example


Risks (by ship):

Battlecruiser: Ganked in site, getting caught on hole
Salvage Cat: Caught on Hole/ganked in site
Scanning Frigate: Caught on Hole, terribad BM skills
Epithal: POCO fiasco
Iteron Mark V: Caught on hole


Full Fleet: Replaced in 15 sites (replaced in 10 sites)
PVP BC+Full Fleet: replaced in 28 sites (replaced in 19 sites)
Epithal: Pays for itself in 1 day
Battlecruiser (Carebear): Pays for itself in 13 sites (Pays for itself in 9 sites)
Battlecruiser (PVP+Site Runner): Pays for itself in 26 sites (Pays for itself in 17 sites)

Average Day: 5 sites--40M (48M) [+10M PI, minus 10M POS fuel]

within 3 days (2 days), you've made enough to get a new, fully-fit Battlecruiser.
if you also have a PVP BC, it's basically 5 days (3 days).

How many sites do you normally run in your ships before it blows up? Because if you fly a BC and you've flown over 15 sites, it's paid for itself. Getting one ship blown up after running 5 sites does not make the next 50 sites "too risky" unless you are blown up EVERY 5 sites.

So please. Living in C2 space is hard. But FAR from the super-risk you envision. C1 space is in theory harder, but more wrecks=more chances for nanos even while blue goo count goes down. So it is (sometimes) harder.


Don't have/wanna drop a bil+ on a POS? Daytrip!


Yes, ISK making in C1-3 sucks. Yes, it should be buffed. But not worth it? No. You've just got a terribad mindset.

Show me actuarial tables

Originally posted in the "Simple Fix?" thread. That post now links here.

you forgot to include a rolling BS, so there's about 250-300M there, the POS and mods itself, which is another 2 bil, or at least 200M for a small mobile base, the PLEX cost, because people plex their accounts in order to turn an enjoyable experience into 'I must not be blown up or I can't play eve anymore' softcockery. This is also done based on one character, who won't be able to pvp much, unless he REALLY knows what he's doing or yolos, and you took C2 space, which while it IS low class, is still 0.0, and is ****, compared to nullsec, where you can, in less visited regions, still farm 24/7 and make at least 60M per hour.

Not to take into account hisec incursions, which are now up pretty much 24/7 (petty feuds and nerdfights aside), and provide about 120M/h in a decent fleet.

All in all, you forgot there's usually more than one person living in a c2, so costs get split in half, you forgot the scan alt, or rather alt account, without which W-space is a lot harder, you forgot that there's constant risk, for relatively mediocre rewards. People aren't complaining about low income, or the high risk. They're complaining about the combination.

Quick comparison:

Low class w-space = C1, C2, C3
Income up to 100M per hour, varies a lot with nanoribbon prices and droprate luck. Higher income is feasible in insanely expensive ships and/or with multiple accounts.
Medium income, high risk.

0.0, renter space
Income from 60M per hour belt ratting, up to 200M per hour by doing combat sigs. Varies with droprate, dropped items and officer spawns. Since you have local, it's safe unless you have connection issues or are ********.
Medium income, medium risk.

Hisec incursions
Income varies, from 90M/h up to 260M/h with the best groups and dual boxing. No risk unless you're flying a 20B untanked battleship and people gank you.
Medium income, low risk.

W-space escalations
Income varies from 200M per hour up to 600M per hour, depending on dual boxing and how many newbs you're feeding. Insane risk due to no local and being anchored in site for a maximum of 5 minutes because of the siege/triage timers. That is if you know what you're doing. A minimal fleet price of about 20b for smooth running (4 caps + webbing ships + booster).
Insane income, insane risk.

See how all of these have different risk/reward ratios? That's what people are complaining about. Either Hisec stuff needs to be nerfed, or the rest needs to be buffed. Why would I risk 500M worth of crap in w-space for farming purposes, when I can risk anywhere from 200M to 5 billion in hisec, for greater income? The only reason I find valid, and I follow, is because the chance of being blown up while farming makes it marginally more fun than flying around clicking 3 buttons (modules and the broadcast shields/armor) waiting for the ka-ching, while having to listen to extremely uneducated opinions about pvp on comms.

Another reason people are misled in terms of ISK/h is the 'preparation time' you need in w-space. In null, you can farm by warping to an anom or belt and shooting whenever local is empty of hostiles. In hisec, you might have to wait an hour to join an incursion fleet, but then you won't be kicked for as long as it's running, which can be 8 hours or more.
In w-space, however, you have to close your static, or keep it watched, you have to scan the system out for additional sites and holes, and sometimes, if your chain is full of hostiles you can't possibly deter, you can't do jack **** until they decide to roll you away. This was also exacerbated by the latest patch.

In other words, in order to live in w-space, you need to be considerably active as an eve player, most of the time that means playing for at least 3 hours a day, which many people either can't afford, or don't have the patience to do. They'd rather pop into an interceptor, join an adverted fleet, and listen to the barking of the FC, or they would rather make 10 jumps in hisec, and get in the first incursion fleet and proceed making ISK for 2 hours, guaranteed.

Another comparison: 30 days of 2h of wormhole activities vs 30 days of 2h of incursion running: 2h of W-space per day can net you up to 200M ISK (lower classes), that is, however, the maximum, and is not guaranteed. The average would be about 120-150M/h (from experience living in a c5-c3 it was even lower, but I'm assuming you're a super-farmer-ISK-making-machine-never-too-tired). Also take into account extra time you need to haul fuel, the fact that you are only paid after hauling loot out to hisec, there are no security status gains for killing sleepers, and you can be killed anywhere, at any time, if you're not careful and vigilant. If you survive the whole month, you get about 5 billion. Minus POS costs. Minus the POCO investment, minus ship you lost, because you did lose some. Probably.

2h per day of incursion running also nets you 200M on average, while risking nothing but the ship you're in. And for a measly 1-site-payout you can even insure that with the people you're running with. And they support your laziness and idiocy, a.k.a. not pressing 'I'm being attacked' button soon enough and therefore dying. End of the month: 6b positive unless you're absolutely 'very-much-below-average-IQ'.



TL;DR
valid points and calculations, but people aren't complaining about the risk itself, they're complaining about the risk vs. reward, which is currently highest in hisec.

EDIT: if any X's are missing from words in the above text, it's because the X key on my keyboard has decided to hang itself. Long live X.
Also, one long gudpoast, now it's time for me to troll again.

......wtf firefox. I had replies to everyone typed out and was finishing the last sentence when you ate my post. again. and didn't load the draft even when I told you to. for the second time. in as many posts.

>.<

I'll reply to the rest later. Stupid browser/forum.

Seraph--Nanoribbons are worth 3.3-3.7 or whatever currently, yes. various prices (POS Fuel/PI 10M/day) are exaggerated. but 4M/ribbon isn't that far a stretch. it's a nice, even number. And, as I noted, rounded up.

Perimeter Hangars should drop 6M blue goo IIRC. The two BS alone should drop 1.2M or so apiece.

No clue what happened to you. And yes, sometimes Sweet Lady Salvage is having a bitchy day and decides to flip you off. Or she thinks you're the bee's sliced bread. Or something like that. the 1-2/site is an average.

I never said you'd get rich off of this. Just that it was actually viable to run the sites. Run a few more sites without getting ganked and the Drake is paid off.

"Too risky" is one way of looking at it I guess. Another might be that for the value of the ship it takes to run the damn things in addition to your time doesnt scale enough with higher class wormholes.

You are also prey to a much wider array of pilots. The new frigate holes also mean that 3 or 4 buddies in ceptors can shut your pve down.

Just because your start up cost is lower doesn't make it worth the time spent. It's not the worst you can do, but the alternatives are so significantly better there isn't much of a point.

Title/OP moderated. Please refrain from the use of profanity and I'd encourage discussion not toe so close to ranting. Thanks.

Quite apart from all the other issues with your post that other people are highlighting, I'll merely query where you found a Class 2 wormhole system that is consistently spawning 5 sites a day.

I briefly occupied a C2>C5/N and cleared sites there just to spend time scanning. I used a sentry domi with a TP and my experience was that even doing that with excellent skills/setup I was hardly making enough to pay for the tower. Albeit I had no intention of using a C2 for moneymaking, but my point is that the null static was much better money than the C2 ever could be.

In my opinion, a C2 should be good money for a solo player. Maybe equivalent to ratting in a -0.8 system at least. But it's not. This is relevant to the "wormholes are empty" problem that people complain about.

I'd like the game to be designed so that the areas that are harder to live in are also more lucrative. May Lord Corbexx hear our prayers and bless us with gracious devs full of wisdoms and content.

Lord Corbexx, the second coming of Bob. Amen.

LOL I'd rather it just corbexx or corb tbh. I'm in the airport at the moment but was a good summit. i'll be posting my c1 to c4 income later when i get home (assuming i make my train connection) c1 to c2 is terrible when compared to other area's of income. people can see for themselves later though.

As for dev full wisdom you'll have to wait for the minutes which I'm hoping wont take to long.

I admire your tenacity.

But compared to Hisec missioning or Incursions. May as well stay cozy in a station while pulling in 140m to 250m an hour and earn a Vargur hull every six to ten hours with little upkeep outside of ammo, paste, and repairs.

At that level you could lose nicely fitted AF's and clones in lowsec FW every day for a month to satisfy your PvP jollies.