These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pre-CSM Summit Nullsec and Sov Thread

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#481 - 2014-09-19 15:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
Serendipity Lost wrote:

So... should I go prompt stupid and forget that all YOUR PRIOR FIXES are the bad game mechanics you aren't responsible for?

i'm guessing you went stupid before this post, but go ahead and identify which of "our" fixes you think are the current bad mechanics because i assure you they're not

Serendipity Lost wrote:

You are the biggest alliance in null sec where there is little content. So as the biggest content makeer you have failed miserably. Folks are bored and tired of being spoon fed your brand of null. They are speaking out and it looks like the intent is to disassemble boring and bring back actual fun.


we only crushed the galactic west, whine to nc/pl about crushing the galactic east

our pilots love us and have great fun crushing shitlords, and then living in their space, and we don't care about what our enemies think (though we do love having enemies to crush)

the space that new people should occupy is the space that's now universally being rented out, but as the very LAST alliance to finally embrace renting you can't whine to us about that being our fault.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#482 - 2014-09-19 15:39:37 UTC
The "cost" of maintaining Sov structures should not be isk, but should be some "LP" type currency tied to the system you own.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#483 - 2014-09-19 16:09:56 UTC
Relax cupcake. It's just a game. Albeit a boring game (thanks for that).

I don't feel like I'm whining and we both know it is irrelevant pointing out which bad change was brought about by which dude/corp/alliance/overlord/dev/CSM rep. What is relevant is we are here now. It's boring as all get out. Folks are unsubbing. Folks are playing other games and just logging in to skill and maybe refresh thier PI or something.

Null sec folks for the most part aren't playing the game. The bulk of the contorlling factions in null only log in and play in earnest when their empire is threatened. Most are playing other games and only come back to this one when it's needed. If needed the monster fleet is summoned (what twice this summer?) and other than that it's boring.

Let's look at where eve is being played:
HS - pretty much the same as it always has been and always will be.
LS - FW - the action comes and goes (sadly mostly at the ebb and flow of LP manipulations, but at least there is pew)
Pirating - there's a decent amount of good pirate groups out there doing their thing
WH - It's been better. There's a lot of guff about hyperion. Folks are leaving - time will tell on this one (GJ Fozzie)
NPC Null - good times to be had, though the pickings are thin at best right now.

Sov Null - Just look at the map. Mostly vacant. Mostly boring. A few ISboxing blips here and there, but no real action. The goon guy wants to unstagnate null w/ missions??!? Adding more grass to a boring pasture will fix nothing. OK, there will be a spike in activity until all this new content is mastered then B O R I N G. So what... add a new tax revenue stream so the afg (g for game) landlords can stockpile more isk and ship assets? Just no.

Not whining and not trying to point fingers. Just pointing out it sux and subscriptions are down. And giving my opinion that the time for CCP to be listening to a few power brokers is likely coming to an end. Eve needs real conflict and real struggle with real chances for gains and success. Does that mean breaking the foundation that the current power blocks are resting on? Probably
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#484 - 2014-09-19 16:15:44 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


Sov Null - Just look at the map. Mostly vacant. Mostly boring. A few ISboxing blips here and there, but no real action. The goon guy wants to unstagnate null w/ missions??!? Adding more grass to a boring pasture will fix nothing. OK, there will be a spike in activity until all this new content is mastered then B O R I N G. So what... add a new tax revenue stream so the afg (g for game) landlords can stockpile more isk and ship assets? Just no.

Not whining and not trying to point fingers. Just pointing out it sux and subscriptions are down. And giving my opinion that the time for CCP to be listening to a few power brokers is likely coming to an end. Eve needs real conflict and real struggle with real chances for gains and success. Does that mean breaking the foundation that the current power blocks are resting on? Probably

the flaws with null are many and varied and arise from numerous different problems: fixing them will require fixing many seemingly minor problems

that said, you appear to have little to no grasp of what the problems are or what good solutions are. for example, your dumb idea that tax revenue streams are bad. alliances being fundeded by taxing their members is good: it means the alliance thrives when its members thrive, not when it has conquered specific point sources of income. the more the alliances goals are aligned with the members, the better and 'bottom-up' income is much better than 'top-down' income: with bottom-up income if your members get bored and unsub your finances crumble
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#485 - 2014-09-19 16:20:57 UTC
It's like we've found disndale's little sister
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#486 - 2014-09-19 16:49:16 UTC
Additional tax streams aren't needed. You already have SRP for supers, you dont need additional isk into your coffers. I didn't say the ability to tax members is bad. I said an additional tax stream from running missions from player stations is not what is needed.

skewing what I say and making a counter point to your construct isn't exactly a new tactic on forums. Most of us are smart enough to see through your slight of type.


My point is null is boring and folks are leaving and it's the fault of the big power block's leadership. This is the point you need to argue. Don't pick out a small point about taxation and focus there.

NULL IS BORING - FOLKS ARE NOT PLAYING THERE ANYMORE

YOU CLAIM YOUR IDEAS WILL FIX IT
YOU"VE MADE SIMILAR CLAIMS AND INITIATED IDEAS TO FIX THINGS IN THE PAST

YOU CLAIM THE CURRENT BORING ISN'T YOUR FAULT, IT'S BAD GAME MECHANICS AND DIVORCE YOURSELF FROM THE DEVELOPMENT OF STATED BAD GAME MECHANICS.

These are the points you need to address.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#487 - 2014-09-19 16:57:19 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:


Sov Null - Just look at the map. Mostly vacant. Mostly boring. A few ISboxing blips here and there, but no real action. The goon guy wants to unstagnate null w/ missions??!? Adding more grass to a boring pasture will fix nothing. OK, there will be a spike in activity until all this new content is mastered then B O R I N G. So what... add a new tax revenue stream so the afg (g for game) landlords can stockpile more isk and ship assets? Just no.

Not whining and not trying to point fingers. Just pointing out it sux and subscriptions are down. And giving my opinion that the time for CCP to be listening to a few power brokers is likely coming to an end. Eve needs real conflict and real struggle with real chances for gains and success. Does that mean breaking the foundation that the current power blocks are resting on? Probably

the flaws with null are many and varied and arise from numerous different problems: fixing them will require fixing many seemingly minor problems

that said, you appear to have little to no grasp of what the problems are or what good solutions are. for example, your dumb idea that tax revenue streams are bad. alliances being fundeded by taxing their members is good: it means the alliance thrives when its members thrive, not when it has conquered specific point sources of income. the more the alliances goals are aligned with the members, the better and 'bottom-up' income is much better than 'top-down' income: with bottom-up income if your members get bored and unsub your finances crumble


I appear to have no grasp of what your problems are? The root of that is that I don't really care what your problems are. What you fail to grasp is that your problems aren't necesarrily everyone elses problems.

For instance the problem of being able to grow your alliance even more and the resources that will be required to support that growth. Most folks see you growing your empire as the problem not how to maintian it as it grows. We just don't share the same perspective.

Let this sink in. YOUR problems with null aren't necessarily THE problems with null.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#488 - 2014-09-19 17:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I appear to have no grasp of what your problems are? The root of that is that I don't really care what your problems are. What you fail to grasp is that your problems aren't necesarrily everyone elses problems.

sure, but you're irrelevant and what you care about doesn't matter

I don't say that to be mean, I say that because it's true. You're not in null, you won't be in null, and you do not understand enough to know what null needs rather than what you want (and you do not even know enough to know what changes would get you what you want).

Those in null, with noggins, largely agree on what null needs. Interestingly - though you do not have the knowledge to realize this - virtually all of that agreement is people in n3/pl/cfc agreeing that the mechanics that let us split the map in half need to go away and our ability to wave our untrammeled mighty spacedick in so many people's face at once needs to be nerfed.

This isn't a conspiracy: you're just not intelligent enough to understand the changes and see that they're not in our rmt cabal interest, so you just assume they are.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Additional tax streams aren't needed. You already have SRP for supers, you dont need additional isk into your coffers. I didn't say the ability to tax members is bad. I said an additional tax stream from running missions from player stations is not what is needed.


you're dumb

someone running missions will be doing that instead of ratting (which we also tax). except they'll actually be getting most of their profit from the LP, which isn't taxed.

come on actually think things through instead of dinsdaling over rmt cabals
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#489 - 2014-09-19 17:55:01 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'm only using goons because he's the one posting the crappy overlord endorsed fixes.

I have no idea which overlord pressured for each individual change that brought us here. Heck, I've liked the goons and their antics since my born on date.

TBH I don't even know the guy and am quite indifferent to him personally.

One thing about goons is they have always had a pretty healthy propoganda machine in the eve meta game. They are coming up short this time. I think the truth of the matter (null sec rainbow unicorn happy theme park renter land is boring) is just a bit too large to cover over at this point. Something inspirational about not being able to kill an idea should probably go here, but it's 3rd snack time at work, so....


The thing with e.g. Baltecs ideas is that we'd be forced to drop a sizeable chunk of space we hold creating a massive void for others to fill it. The PL-posted suggestions is close to that also as it'd shrink the space one could own from thousands to mere hundreds as a coalition. You could be looking at over a thousand systems up for grabs if one of the system gets implemented and that'd be the thing to bring people to sov null.

If'd be down to the players to go and get systems, create content and try to fight but it'd be mostly small alliances fighting from single systems while big coalitions 3rd party the fights and defecate on the "fun" of new guys.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#490 - 2014-09-19 23:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
baltec1 wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:


fyp

edit: i used timbit cuss its a small doughnut. your space might be smaller but will still keep the rental space and have it grow in proportional size if force projection is not rained in.


Its not projection you need to deal with its our fleets invincibility. It doesn't matter if we take 1 hour or 4 hours to get there what matters is what happens when we get there


Yeah but in those 4 hours we can have an epic fight without having to worry that it will turn into a tidi slug fest.


Though we already agree rr needs to have diminishing returns

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#491 - 2014-09-20 01:40:56 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

No you cannot. Your excuse is bullshit and you know it. If commitment was all that mattered then some woudl be doing.

We roam YOUR space and other groups space from time to time and almost never anyone comes trying to stop us, because a group of 15 shisp cannot do ANY damage that would force the sov holders to even log in and leave their mumble.

yes you can

we just then crush you like moa is now learning as they're camped out of their home

what you are actually whining like a little girl for is a way to win despite us responding, basically begging the devs to win your fights for you



Exact case in point..... you would think that MOA having upwards of 60+ capitals and some supers and titans of our own we could push your capitals off the undock. Unfortunately the current power projection does not allow that. We have eyes on your titans and we know that we could crush the capital fleet you have close, however we know that within a short period of time we would have to deal with not only your capitals but all the local CFC capitals as well, all with in a time span of a battle starting and it ending... our fleet would be welped and with the overwelming reps of your archons it would be one sided.

its your JB network and your ability to project that power..that is the key.....if you had to move 15 jumps from YAO to 5zxx-k , Do you really think you could camp the station? NO ...we would kill you off every time. Its the ability to cyno in from vast distances from multiple alliances huge amounts of ships....

so why would we field our capitals? we dont of course..they sit like pretty jewels in our hangers useless.... carriers reduced to ship haulers for moving to deployment areas.

one more annoying factor that small null sec groups will tell you is that Dictors dont aggro when they bubble...so they can basically perma bubble in people in NPC stations... what does this do.... it forces us to base out of silly low sec areas so they cant bubble. Its a huge advantage being able to bubble and not gain aggro on npc stations


your ability to "crush" groups like ours..is not due to some vast awesome skills you have,..its a product of failed game mechanics.

I will tell you this now..if the game mechanics change, and we know that your capital fleet is not able to interfere with battles that are far away... we will use the tools at hand.. and I can safely say that in any battle that is even close to equal odds, it will be us that is doing the crushing....
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#492 - 2014-09-20 02:04:07 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Additional tax streams aren't needed. You already have SRP for supers, you dont need additional isk into your coffers. I didn't say the ability to tax members is bad. I said an additional tax stream from running missions from player stations is not what is needed.

skewing what I say and making a counter point to your construct isn't exactly a new tactic on forums. Most of us are smart enough to see through your slight of type.


My point is null is boring and folks are leaving and it's the fault of the big power block's leadership. This is the point you need to argue. Don't pick out a small point about taxation and focus there.

NULL IS BORING - FOLKS ARE NOT PLAYING THERE ANYMORE

YOU CLAIM YOUR IDEAS WILL FIX IT
YOU"VE MADE SIMILAR CLAIMS AND INITIATED IDEAS TO FIX THINGS IN THE PAST

YOU CLAIM THE CURRENT BORING ISN'T YOUR FAULT, IT'S BAD GAME MECHANICS AND DIVORCE YOURSELF FROM THE DEVELOPMENT OF STATED BAD GAME MECHANICS.

These are the points you need to address.



Ok, so I'm dumb. I'll give you that - I mean you know best and all. But please please please in your infinite greatness speak to this. Teach me. I'd like to understand what is different this time.

Do you truly believe null sec missions wil cure the boredom and stop the leaving? I'm dumb, outlline it for me. I want to understand.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2014-09-20 02:11:47 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:

its your JB network and your ability to project that power..that is the key.....if you had to move 15 jumps from YAO to 5zxx-k , Do you really think you could camp the station? NO ...we would kill you off every time. Its the ability to cyno in from vast distances from multiple alliances huge amounts of ships....


The guys camping you actually base far closer than YA0. We have stations in the same region as 5ZX.

You are basically surrounded and are probably the worst example of power projection being busted.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#494 - 2014-09-20 02:32:23 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I appear to have no grasp of what your problems are? The root of that is that I don't really care what your problems are.

Well that's kind of what this thread is about, so maybe you shouldn't post.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#495 - 2014-09-20 02:36:04 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
its your JB network and your ability to project that power..that is the key.....if you had to move 15 jumps from YAO to 5zxx-k , Do you really think you could camp the station? NO ...we would kill you off every time. Its the ability to cyno in from vast distances from multiple alliances huge amounts of ships....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....No. NPC station in the heart of the CFC? You're delusional. Most of the dudes who hell camp that station have their ships already there. I have a few there myself. Like Shepard Wong said, that's a terrible example of power projection. Unless you consider simply undocking as power projection.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#496 - 2014-09-20 03:22:00 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:


I will tell you this now..if the game mechanics change, and we know that your capital fleet is not able to interfere with battles that are far away... we will use the tools at hand.. and I can safely say that in any battle that is even close to equal odds, it will be us that is doing the crushing....




Well, time for you to put your money were your mouth is.

An Incursion just spawned in the constellation with 5ZX.

I think CCP is calling you out.

:munch:
Elmnt80
Life. Universe. Everything.
#497 - 2014-09-20 07:26:07 UTC
CCP just cyno jammed your home system MoA. This is the best chance you'll ever have to prove your elite pvp skills, so lets see 'em.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#498 - 2014-09-20 11:56:21 UTC
Rowells wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
its your JB network and your ability to project that power..that is the key.....if you had to move 15 jumps from YAO to 5zxx-k , Do you really think you could camp the station? NO ...we would kill you off every time. Its the ability to cyno in from vast distances from multiple alliances huge amounts of ships....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....No. NPC station in the heart of the CFC? You're delusional. Most of the dudes who hell camp that station have their ships already there. I have a few there myself. Like Shepard Wong said, that's a terrible example of power projection. Unless you consider simply undocking as power projection.


Maybe sov holder should not be allowed to dock in npc stations ever again. Haz sov, use it

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#499 - 2014-09-20 13:37:33 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Rowells wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
its your JB network and your ability to project that power..that is the key.....if you had to move 15 jumps from YAO to 5zxx-k , Do you really think you could camp the station? NO ...we would kill you off every time. Its the ability to cyno in from vast distances from multiple alliances huge amounts of ships....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....No. NPC station in the heart of the CFC? You're delusional. Most of the dudes who hell camp that station have their ships already there. I have a few there myself. Like Shepard Wong said, that's a terrible example of power projection. Unless you consider simply undocking as power projection.


Maybe sov holder should not be allowed to dock in npc stations ever again. Haz sov, use it


Hisec players should not be able to dock in lowsec or npc null.
FW-plaeyrs should not be able to dock in hisec or null npc.
Sovholders cannot dock in NPC station.

Sounds good.

Also I'd like to partake on whatever your are smoking.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#500 - 2014-09-20 13:46:36 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I appear to have no grasp of what your problems are? The root of that is that I don't really care what your problems are.

Well that's kind of what this thread is about, so maybe you shouldn't post.



I agree! That is exactly what the thread is about. There are several thousand folks that don't care about the problems associated with maintaining a mega empire/coalition. They care that under the rulership of said large groups the game has become stale, boring and they are moving on.

Renters don't want to rent. They want to grow and expand. With the current 'I win' contol they don't have a reasonable option of obtaining their goals. So they hit the ceiling, get bored/frustrated and move on to other games.

"Let them run missions" is pretty close to "Let them eat cake" and the folks saying each of them are (in my opinion) equally disillusioned. Folks moving to null want a reasonable shot of carving out thier own space. They don't want to be farm fed missions, anoms and safe mining.

Some of the more vocal large coalition reps in this thread are probably hurting the situation more than helping it when the keep pointing out there is nothing the little guys can do. Be realistic, if that's where null is and there is nothing the average group of players can do about it AND subscriptions are going down then CCP will either step in and fix it (make it fun again) or watch it wither and die.

As the ishtar is coming to the end of it's reign, I'm thinking the supercap blob will also be coming to its end. I don't have all the answers, but I can see the problems as clearly as most. You can say my opinion doesn't matter and that I don't understand the bigger problems. Go ahead, tell one more person they aren't relevant. There are thousands of folks not in your inner circle just dieing to hear you say it one more time.