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Pre-CSM Summit Nullsec and Sov Thread

First post First post
Author
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#381 - 2014-09-17 10:25:56 UTC
I propose to identify the problems:
1 Large numbers of pilots always win the fight. (2: 1 or more) This creates an enormous coalition.
2 The doctrine of armor better shield doctrine. (Slave set) Coalition capital fleets always have armor fit.
3 Logistics Titans and Jump Freighters. (No need for the development of local industrial and mining enterprises).
4 Rapid movement of the fleet through the portal of Titan. (allows you to quickly gather large number of pilots).
5 No ability to install protective structures anywhere other than your POS. (turrets partially offset the amount of the fleet).

Main objective:
1 To create the conditions for the formation of a large number of hostile alliances.
2 To create the conditions for small alliances to stay in the null-sectors.
3 All space must be used effectively. If you don't use it then it is not needed.

Set of solutions:
1 Your Territory - your rules. Add structures that allow you to increase the specs of all ships of corporation system owner.
2 Enter the opportunity to hack the system of ownership. (with reinforced mode). Small forces to take a piece of cake.
3 Limit the possibility Jump Freighters and portal Titan.
4 Enter an NPC who are trying to pick up the Sovereignty. (eg Sansha) If you do not protect the system you do not need it. (weekly)
5 Fight to the end. Enter structure which does not allow capital ships to leave the system.
6 Enter the opportunity to hack the gate. Gates are disabled for a short period of time.

p.s. Outposts still need to make destructible.
LeoniaTavira
Pure Avarice.
Rote Kapelle
#382 - 2014-09-17 12:32:35 UTC
I have written a rather lengthy number of proposals into a google doc, which can be viewed here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PVRVLHlqq1GpgpPsaKgGVK1MoBokAP84VGChcc5SAXQ/edit?usp=sharing
thelaststanden
M.I.M.M.S
#383 - 2014-09-17 12:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: thelaststanden
Hello, this will fix all problems of sov changes of power blocs... i'm going to be using what we already have in game made better ...


PATH ONE

SBU IT TO HELL! 75 MAX UNITS NEED TO BE PLACE DOWN
WITH OUT COME OF 75% REDUCE HIT POINTS ON ALL STRUCTURES!

ALL SBU CAN NOT BE PLACE WITH IN 1AU OF EACH OTHER. HAVE FUN PLACING THEM!
ONLY TIMERS WILL BE ALLOW ON STATION OR IHUB! 24 HOUR MAX TIMER.

OR

PATH TWO

CAMP THE SYSTEM OUT AND ALLOW THE INDEX FOR BOTH INDUSTRY AND MILITARY INDEX DROP TO ZERO.

STATION DROPS TO NPC SPACE - CLAIM IS LOST FOR THE OWNER. "USE IT OR LOSE IT"
EACH LEVEL OF INDEX ALLOWS SYSTEM UPGRADES NO LONGER HOW LONG YOU OWN IT BUT USED IT.

OR

PATH THREE

FIND A EMPTY SYSTEM? WHICH IS OWNED? COUNTER FOR THIS IS NEW ESS SOV UNIT
PLACE THE UNIT IN A SYSTEM FOR EVERY BOUNTIE YOU KILL IN SYSTEM IT WILL MAKE COST BIT HIGHER FOR THE OWNER! PAY THE HIGH SOV COSTS OF SYSTEM OR ALLOW SYSTEM TO DROP CLAIM.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#384 - 2014-09-17 13:47:58 UTC
I realize this discussion is regarding an ends to justify the means, but, something CCP might want to keep in mind is, when they do eventually 'fix' sov in the way that it should be fixed, it will not take long before they will know if they did it right. Before the 'new era' of sov stabilizes, we should be seeing the biggest war ever. And not just in one system, but spread all over.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#385 - 2014-09-17 16:15:47 UTC
Long term fixes.

Moon Goo depletes and relocates (totally random, no way to pull data you have to scan the new deposit)
No cyno jamming any systems




Other stuff that would help:

No drone assist
Destroyable stations
Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#386 - 2014-09-17 20:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Long term fixes.

Moon Goo depletes and relocates (totally random, no way to pull data you have to scan the new deposit)
No cyno jamming any systems




Other stuff that would help:

No drone assist
Destroyable stations
Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service



These won't fix any of the issues with null and all of these ideas will make it worse.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#387 - 2014-09-17 21:38:18 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Long term fixes.

Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service



Rofl. This was not well thought out. Though it would be hilarious to see all medical stations on an alliance's holdings to all get incapped on a daily basis. I guess you'd either have to make sure you've set your clone for hisec or just never undock again lest you want to lose some skillpoints. Talk about a new way to grief people en masse.
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2014-09-17 22:40:55 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:


Rofl. This was not well thought out. Though it would be hilarious to see all medical stations on an alliance's holdings to all get incapped on a daily basis. I guess you'd either have to make sure you've set your clone for hisec or just never undock again lest you want to lose some skillpoints. Talk about a new way to grief people en masse.


Idea is good.
You will lose only clone with implants & all assets on that station.
Simple rule: play hard, or live in high-sec.
Triget
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2014-09-17 22:41:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Long term fixes.

Moon Goo depletes and relocates (totally random, no way to pull data you have to scan the new deposit)
No cyno jamming any systems




Other stuff that would help:

No drone assist
Destroyable stations
Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service



These won't fix any of the issues with null and all of these ideas will make it worse.



Any idea that will fix sov enough to make it fun would **** off too many people currently entrenched in the current system, leading to a subscription drop. In a lot of ways, this is something I think they would have one shot at. If they did something that did not **** people off, it would back fire because it wouldn't fix the problems.

We need to get beyond the tactical issues and look at the strategic issues. Dominion sov change will only benefit the most powerful. Jump drive nerfs would infuriate all the logistics guys and the super pilots. Nerfing moon income (not as important anymore) doesn't effect the deep pockets of the very wealthy alliances, while making it more difficult for alliances to get a income flow. These are tactical solutions to a strategic problem.
kosmicheski
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#390 - 2014-09-17 23:17:39 UTC
What needs to be done is very simple. Give more power to a small group of players.
How you can do that without making the big group of player more powerful?
Well is simple! What are the cons of having a huge fleet/s to command.
* Time to organize
* Time to move
* TiDi, on undock on jumping gate on taking the titan bridge.
* And the best for last Grouping all in place!
Yes the biggest advantage of the big group is its biggest disadvantage.

So what to do?
REMOVE THE REINFORCEMENT TIMERS!
If you are there to defend it, do so! If you happen to be somewhere else you lose it.

The huge reinforcement timers are what kills null sec. No small group can get a system anymore, because to do so you have to kill millions of HP just to get a timer 3 days later and if you are lucky and have the opportunity to kill another x million of HP, you get another timer and 3 more days.

So all this nonsense about power projection, how it should be nerf etc... WELL nerf it to hell if you want, if the big group has a week to organize there force to defend a system they do not use anyway, what is the point?

What eve needs is simple change, that gives more opportunities to players. Not some major reshaping and nerfing. You are not making new game! CCP does not make the game, the players does!
Sinnister Agenda
Trigger Warning.
#391 - 2014-09-18 00:28:39 UTC
kosmicheski wrote:

REMOVE THE REINFORCEMENT TIMERS!
If you are there to defend it, do so! If you happen to be somewhere else you lose it.


Have you ever been involved in sov warfare? It would turn into a TZ war and no one would bother holding sov because someone would just come in and kill your claim. Especially a blob of supers from the big blocs. Also an alliance would lose so much money through pos replacement because people would just drop dreads on towers all day killing them in under 5min.
kosmicheski
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#392 - 2014-09-18 01:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: kosmicheski
lol blob of supers :)
let them come and take it, when they leave you take it back

Thats the hole point of things, if you there you can owned it, if you are not you lose it.
IF they chose to stay in the area and try to defend it then you go and attack there home system :)
NULL IS BIG and empty... Not because people wont take it, its because people wont bother spending hours in girding when the defender has a week to defend it.
There is 0 dynamic in null sec SOV.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#393 - 2014-09-18 01:31:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Long term fixes.

Moon Goo depletes and relocates (totally random, no way to pull data you have to scan the new deposit)
No cyno jamming any systems




Other stuff that would help:

No drone assist
Destroyable stations
Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service



These won't fix any of the issues with null and all of these ideas will make it worse.


your supporting evidence is quite overwhelming.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#394 - 2014-09-18 01:50:27 UTC
Triget wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Long term fixes.

Moon Goo depletes and relocates (totally random, no way to pull data you have to scan the new deposit)
No cyno jamming any systems




Other stuff that would help:

No drone assist
Destroyable stations
Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service



These won't fix any of the issues with null and all of these ideas will make it worse.



Any idea that will fix sov enough to make it fun would **** off too many people currently entrenched in the current system, leading to a subscription drop. In a lot of ways, this is something I think they would have one shot at. If they did something that did not **** people off, it would back fire because it wouldn't fix the problems.

We need to get beyond the tactical issues and look at the strategic issues. Dominion sov change will only benefit the most powerful. Jump drive nerfs would infuriate all the logistics guys and the super pilots. Nerfing moon income (not as important anymore) doesn't effect the deep pockets of the very wealthy alliances, while making it more difficult for alliances to get a income flow. These are tactical solutions to a strategic problem.


here's my bet. The 20 guys doing the meta thing will be infuriated and drop their subs. The other thousands will log in and continue on w/out them.

Every time one of these big shots says their will be massive unsubbing you need to remember they can say that and they can certainly unsub, but realistically are are their minions are more likely to rejoice and go play the game they want. So the whole "my 4000 guys are going to unsub because I'm no longer in charge" is more funny to me than a credible end to eve.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#395 - 2014-09-18 02:59:45 UTC
Sigras wrote:


TL;DR
instead of making sov harder to take, make it easier


wholeheartedly agree.

should encourage activity in areas you want to own.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#396 - 2014-09-18 03:24:45 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Long term fixes.

Moon Goo depletes and relocates (totally random, no way to pull data you have to scan the new deposit)
No cyno jamming any systems




Other stuff that would help:

No drone assist
Destroyable stations
Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service



These won't fix any of the issues with null and all of these ideas will make it worse.


your supporting evidence is quite overwhelming.


I dont need it given just how bad these ideas are. I would advise you to go moon scanning to see why scouting an entire region of moons is hated by everyone.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#397 - 2014-09-18 05:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Dread Scar wrote:

2) logistics require a limitation, I suggest disallow remote assistance and vastly increase ehp on T2 logi to make them viable.
3) Moon goo should be minable and widely available like normal ores instead of time based POS nonsense.
4) Restrict the amount of SOV per alliance with a means to prevent coalition.

2) Two things apply to logistics, if you can do enough damage quickly it is often possible to destroy ships right in front of their logi. Secondly logi can be handled even in small scale engagements and it often produces interesting and fun fights that are not possible if it were otherwise. Make logi unreppable and you simply end up with more instances of "we just need to bring more than they do".

Additionally logi are often needed for many PvE activities and with the more advanced AI which will swap targets apply warp disruption and high damage things like incursions would suffer horribly from this change for no real reason.

3) Agreed.

4) Arbitrarily adding a cap to the number of systems an alliance can hold is pointless, all hail the rise of renter sov and/or pet alliances holding space for their glorious overlords, not that that's necessarily new, it would just be enforced by an obnoxious arbitrary ceiling. Make no mistake blue and red are just colors, short of removing the ability to see names, corp and alliance tickers on the overview, in space and on locked targets people will find a way to identify their friendlies, all you will get is a few more instances of friendly fire with a crowded overview. Failing that people will just form the super alliance of 50k members. You can't remove the desire to form a large alliance to protect yourself by changing the font.

If you want to reduce the number of blues you have to make the benefit of having blues less appealing in more subtle ways than just simply setting them red by default and locking it in. People are smart enough to find a way to work around that. This is why in a lengthy post on page 19 of this thread I suggested that we need to restrict how often pilots can jump using a jump drive or bridge. Jump drives and bridges are needed for the interesting and meaningful tactical options they provide but should not be used as an express lane to ensure your alliance's influence covers all of EVE at once. It's admittedly an inelegant solution but it does significantly reduce the value of blues who are two thirds of a universe away as well as forces you to weigh your options when using drives and bridges as you wouldn't be able to simply jump back if you make a bad decision, but beyond that shouldn't be too restrictive. If that were to happen large coalitions would not be able to call in large scale reinforcements before many fights would be decided and if you moved in your coalition forces early anticipating a fight then other members of your coalition would be ripe for the picking with their heavy assets tied up far away. In this way excessively large coalitions become less valuable and thereby less appealing which will cause them to dissolve on their own over time.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Crimson Draufgange
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#398 - 2014-09-18 05:45:32 UTC
I'm here to throw a few crazy idea's at CCP. Hopefully they'll at least think about my crazy ideas.

- Remove jump freighters completely and replace them with covert ops freighters that cannot enter high sec. This would force regular freighters to go into low sec to get assets into a covert ops freighter which is then flown to null sec. Smaller alliances and corps might have an easier time moving stuff because they have less demand for certain assets than a large entity does.

- What if titans couldn't bridge from POS's? What if they had to warp to a safe to bridge? If a titan is bridging a fleet to another system, that fleet is obviously looking to get some reward. A rather large reward, otherwise they wouldn't bother bridging. A titan bridging from a POS with it's hooter sticking out isn't exactly what I call high risk.

- Player made stargates? Might be a bad idea. Might be a good idea.

- Revamp the whole process of losing/gaining sovereignty. Remove SBU's and IHUBS. Keep TCUs, but revamp them as well. What if system upgrades were applied directly to the TCU? No timers on the TCU. There should be 2 states of a system: secure and vulnerable.

Introducing a whole new concept: TCU nodes. What are nodes? They're essentially power banks (batteries) that power the entire TCU. These nodes can be hacked just like any ordinary bank in a data/relic site. All these nodes are inside the TCU itself and can be accessed using a hacking module. There should be 3 nodes that can be hacked. In order to hack node 2, you must first hack node 1. In order to hack node 3, you must first hack node 2. All nodes are secure until somebody starts hacking a node. You need to hack node 1, then 2, then 3. Node 2 is immune or invulnerable until node 1 is successfully hacked (same for 3). When hacking commences, that node becomes vulnerable. These nodes must also have a "power supply" to keep anti virus security up and to recharge the adjacent node. Node 3 recharges node 2. Node 2 recharges node 1. Node 1 recharges node 3. A successful hack on a node drains the power of the node to 0%, making the next node vulnerable. If the adjacent node still has 100% power, that node will regenerate the hacked node. If a node is in the process of being hacked, it does not regenerate the power of the adjacent node. Power is deposited from node to node every 5 minutes. When all nodes are hacked and depleted of power, the TCU can be shot at, which can then flip the system.

As soon as hacking of the first node commences, a notification is sent to the CEOs and directors of the corps in the alliance. It should only take 1 guy in a frigate (or ship of your choice) to hack the nodes, meaning a small response team can be sent out to defend the system. That could either escalate to a grand fight or simply drive the hacker out of the system. Only a corp/alliance member with the proper permissions can hack TCUs (for example, only directors and CEOs).

Nodes can be upgraded to increase security measures which in turn would raise the cost of holding sov in that system.

- What if corporations (not in an alliance) could claim sov in null?

That's all I can think of for now.

My Velator is overpowered.

"I use my hairgel to tackle my targets because it has a long lasting firm hold." - Me.

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#399 - 2014-09-18 10:04:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Long term fixes.

Moon Goo depletes and relocates (totally random, no way to pull data you have to scan the new deposit)
No cyno jamming any systems




Other stuff that would help:

No drone assist
Destroyable stations
Destroyable station services - Min 24 hour down time before they can be put back in service



These won't fix any of the issues with null and all of these ideas will make it worse.


your supporting evidence is quite overwhelming.


I dont need it given just how bad these ideas are. I would advise you to go moon scanning to see why scouting an entire region of moons is hated by everyone.

Some ideas are good, some are horrible. But Lost presented a slightly better argument then "No one likes to scan."

...

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#400 - 2014-09-18 10:31:33 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

Some ideas are good, some are horrible. But Lost presented a slightly better argument then "No one likes to scan."


You also should go do it. The only people who think scanning moons isn't a soul sapping, mind numbing activity are people who have never done it.