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AF Rebalance pass
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Katia Echerie
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1 - 2014-09-17 18:10:52 UTC
AFs are some of the most flown ships in the game thanks to their low skill barrier, cost efficiency and fun gameplay.

We all know AFs have been rebalanced a while ago however some of them are still at an awkward position, seeing as a lot of them have been overshadowed by T1 ships or faction ships of similar value. Others are just plain inferior thanks to either their bonuses or slot layouts. The Hawk, Wolf and Enyo stand as the better AFs and are pretty much how AFs should be. The Harpy and Vengeance stand now as useable but somewhat lacklustre on their performance. The Jaguar, Ishkur and Retribution however stand on awkward spots because they are either plain inferior to their counterparts, have odd slot layouts or are overshadowed by T1 alternatives.

Here are my observations for each:

Hawk - Doesn't need changing. It tanks well and applies damage sufficiently well. A slight CPU nerf perhaps to make the use of fitting mods necessary for fitting dual MASB tanks.

Harpy - Shares a similar fitting layout as the Merlin. Its bonuses are well applied however the Harpy could use better mobility stats.

Wolf - In a good spot but still think it needs a low moved to a mid. As it is now it resembles more an Amarr ship than a Minmatar ship.

Jaguar - Is in a crappy state. Anemic DPS coupled with the wrong bonuses. The Jaguar needs the Shield Boost amount bonus seen on the Vagabond for use in a similar manner. The slot layout can remain the same so long as the bonuses change. As it is, the Jaguar will lose to a lot of the T1 frigs in similar roles. In a close range fit the Jaguar will be forced to disengage against a Dual Rep Incursus almost every time. Against a Comet it will certainly lose. It stands little to no chance against most other AFs.

Enyo - Second only to the Hawk in AFs in my opinion. Works well as it is but would be better if it swapped its optimal range bonus for a armor repairer amount bonus (as we see in the Deimos).

Ishkur - Like the Jaguar it is in an awkward spot after the Algos was launched. It currently has less EHP and DPS than the Algos and costs almost twice as much. There is no advantage to using an Ishkur over an Algos other than speed. The Ishkur could use a damage bonus to drones or application bonuses.

Vengeance - Has a solid tank but needs more damage. As it stands it has T1 DPS with terrible damage application.

Retribution - Has a solid tank but is slow, has terrible tracking and is extremely vulnerable to anything orbiting at close range. A couple of drones would help it greatly. As it is now theres not much advantage to using the Retribution over the Coercer.

These are my thoughts and I'm certainly overseeing a lot of things but most can agree AFs need another pass.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2 - 2014-09-17 18:17:02 UTC
Katia Echerie wrote:


Ishkur - Like the Jaguar it is in an awkward spot after the Algos was launched. It currently has less EHP and DPS than the Algos and costs almost twice as much. There is no advantage to using an Ishkur over an Algos other than speed. The Ishkur could use a damage bonus to drones or application bonuses.


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Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Katia Echerie
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3 - 2014-09-17 18:23:16 UTC
Fair enough. I can post a bunch of kills in a Jaguar too but that doesn't change the fact that its not where it should be. The case of the Ishkur its basically like having two brands of water to drink from. They are both water but one is more expensive and offers nothing special.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-09-17 18:29:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
----------

Hey guys.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#5 - 2014-09-17 18:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Katia Echerie wrote:
Fair enough. I can post a bunch of kills in a Jaguar too but that doesn't change the fact that its not where it should be. The case of the Ishkur its basically like having two brands of water to drink from. They are both water but one is more expensive and offers nothing special.

what?

anyway,

the ishkur without much effort can get 70-90 % resists across can have a marginally larger sig than a light drone and hit in close range for 300+ dps cold (with about 100 of that out to 40+ k away) while still having room for a cap booster and a neut.

that's not water love,
that's moonshine

you have a point about the retribution though.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-09-17 18:42:12 UTC
The jag could use some love, agreed. The ship itself is fine, it just really took a hit when projectiles got nerfed into uselessness and small rails become god.

Vengeance is fine imo. Yes, it has crappy dps, and is kinda slow, but it is a great ship to come in with secondary tackle and hold it forever. Monster tank on an AF.
Katia Echerie
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#7 - 2014-09-17 18:48:58 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Katia Echerie wrote:
Fair enough. I can post a bunch of kills in a Jaguar too but that doesn't change the fact that its not where it should be. The case of the Ishkur its basically like having two brands of water to drink from. They are both water but one is more expensive and offers nothing special.

what?

anyway,

the ishkur without much effort can get 70-90 % resists across can have a marginally larger sig than a light drone and hit in close range for 300+ dps cold (with about 100 of that out to 40+ k away) while still having room for a cap booster and a neut.

that's not water love,
that's moonshine


The Algos effortlessly gets 350-400 dps with 12k EHP while maintaining a scram and web. It also has significantly faster drones (damage application) for much less money. You could also use a Dragoon which has good tank, with the added advantage of neuts. Basically the Ishkur isn't the drone monster it should be in the Frigate/Dessie level. That is without mentioning the Worm which cost aside craps all over the Ishkur.
Xorth Adimus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-09-17 19:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorth Adimus
Solo some ships are just never going to work, other ships are, given the current meta.

In my mind I see Assault frigates as heavy tacklers / anti-frigate roles in small fleets. Fleets with logistics, where you only care about buffer and resists.

If you want to use an AF solo then of course in some situations allot of them are not going to work, but this is counter to their role. If you think all these ships are lacking you haven't flown in an small assault frigate fleet.

I am not saying this role is right nor that it works very well for some of the less used ships. I was hoping for a AB role bonus for these ships but this was saved just for Sansha ships, which is a shame.

In larger fleets they are not so useful as they are overshadowed by the speed and interdiction nullification of ceptors so they fit in a small niche today.

Question is what role do you want for these ships? Sounds like you want a solo brawler, in which case some AF accidentally can fill this role and there are many other ships that you can also choose from, so why add even more?
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-09-17 19:07:39 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Katia Echerie wrote:
Fair enough. I can post a bunch of kills in a Jaguar too but that doesn't change the fact that its not where it should be. The case of the Ishkur its basically like having two brands of water to drink from. They are both water but one is more expensive and offers nothing special.

what?

anyway,

the ishkur without much effort can get 70-90 % resists across can have a marginally larger sig than a light drone and hit in close range for 300+ dps cold (with about 100 of that out to 40+ k away) while still having room for a cap booster and a neut.

that's not water love,
that's moonshine

you have a point about the retribution though.


And now I want to fly ishkurs... thanks. I shall now buy 5 of them and park them in my hanger alongside all the other cool fit concepts I've heard of / seen and never gotten around to using enough.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Belen Shields
Iskender Kebap Corp
#10 - 2014-09-17 19:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Belen Shields
Why not putting the AFs Into a New Role by adding the capability of using medium sized weapons on one oft the ship of each race? Keep the good AFs for the anti-support Role and buff the remaining 4 so they can fill a new niche like the assault BC. Would they be too OP?
Katia Echerie
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#11 - 2014-09-17 19:23:34 UTC
Xorth Adimus wrote:
Solo some ships are just never going to work, other ships are, given the current meta.

In my mind I see Assault frigates as heavy tacklers / anti-frigate roles in small fleets. Fleets with logistics, where you only care about buffer and resists.

If you want to use an AF solo then of course in some situations allot of them are not going to work, but this is counter to their role. If you think all these ships are lacking you haven't flown in an small assault frigate fleet.

I am not saying this role is right nor that it works very well for some of the less used ships. I was hoping for a AB role bonus for these ships but this was saved just for Sansha ships, which is a shame.

In larger fleets they are not so useful as they are overshadowed by the speed and interdiction nullification of ceptors so they fit in a small niche today.

Question is what role do you want for these ships? Sounds like you want a solo brawler, in which case some AF accidentally can fill this role and there are many other ships that you can also choose from, so why add even more?


I agree with the point that they shouldn't be balanced around Solo work. However have a look at a lot of these ships. The Jaguar is no better than a Stiletto or Claw in a fleet for instance. I understand the role of AFs as heavy tackle/damage dealers in small packages. This means they should all be able to put out high amounts of damage (according to their racial weapons of course). They should also be really tough for frigates. While they all sorta fit that role they aren't as good at it as other ships. Since these are T2 ships that is a big no no. They are supposed to be specialized in that role. They shouldn't be less effective at their specialized role than a T1 ship. Furthermore, unlike Inties you don't have a combat AF and a fleet AF. It seems that we get to pick weapon systems.

If you go and look at it. A lot of them don't have the proper bonuses for that either. The thing is they are inconsistent. HACs on the other hand have got it right. While not all of them are great solo they can all be used to great effect in fleet engagements. AFs on the other hand aren't like that.

Obviously its not true for all of them. Take the Enyo and Hawk for instance. They are great ships in fleets, great ships solo. They simply work as intended. Not the same can be said for the Jaguar or Retribution.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#12 - 2014-09-17 19:34:58 UTC
Katia Echerie wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Katia Echerie wrote:
Fair enough. I can post a bunch of kills in a Jaguar too but that doesn't change the fact that its not where it should be. The case of the Ishkur its basically like having two brands of water to drink from. They are both water but one is more expensive and offers nothing special.

what?

anyway,

the ishkur without much effort can get 70-90 % resists across can have a marginally larger sig than a light drone and hit in close range for 300+ dps cold (with about 100 of that out to 40+ k away) while still having room for a cap booster and a neut.

that's not water love,
that's moonshine


The Algos effortlessly gets 350-400 dps with 12k EHP while maintaining a scram and web. It also has significantly faster drones (damage application) for much less money. You could also use a Dragoon which has good tank, with the added advantage of neuts. Basically the Ishkur isn't the drone monster it should be in the Frigate/Dessie level. That is without mentioning the Worm which cost aside craps all over the Ishkur.

Neither of those destroyers will stand up to any degree of attention,
the an algos will pop so fast it will never get to apply those drones for long, there's a good chance a neut fit Dragoon will cap itself out out if it has to tanked as well as neut and will if you neut it back (love cap boosters), corax will cave trouble applying dps if you're Sig tanked(which you should)

A T2 fit ishkur will eat a destroyer without any effort.
My only issue with it is it's locking speed, which ain't great for corpse collecting , and its actually based speed
I haven't come across a worm since the changes so I'm not in a position to comment on it,

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Katia Echerie
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#13 - 2014-09-17 19:40:15 UTC
14k EHP with 300 DPS is not easy to drop in a blaster Ishkur. In any case, the Worm does 250 DRONE dps. That's double what the Ishkur can do. And it can do that while still maintaining 12k EHP. That said, the Worm is technically supposed to be that way. My problem is that its main weapon system (Drones) has no bonus at all.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#14 - 2014-09-17 19:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Katia Echerie wrote:
14k EHP with 300 DPS is not easy to drop in a blaster Ishkur. In any case, the Worm does 250 DRONE dps. That's double what the Ishkur can do. And it can do that while still maintaining 12k EHP. That said, the Worm is technically supposed to be that way. My problem is that its main weapon system (Drones) has no bonus at all.

So kill it's drones, literally the first thing you should do with anything other than a destroyer,
if you can catch it in an ishkur,
you can kill it(most of the time).

Also, if drones were the ishkurs main weapon system it would have bonuses for it, the bulk of its dps comes from its guns, the drones add a healthy amount of versatility but it's Farr from useless without them.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#15 - 2014-09-17 19:47:56 UTC
The jags traits are fine. It excels at scram kiting with artillery. Jags with acs are meh, but with arty are nice. What the jag needs is more PG so you can fit artillery without a bunch of fitting mods or implants. Jag is more capable than wolf since it has 4mids for range control/ewar. Wolf dps is nice, but with no range control makes it easy to get away from.

Arty jag could hold a dual rep incursus at 8km and volley through the reps, or mitigate all dps until it runs out of cap boosters. Jag is good for traits and slot layout, just needs fitting tweaked.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Katia Echerie
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#16 - 2014-09-17 19:52:01 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Katia Echerie wrote:
14k EHP with 300 DPS is not easy to drop in a blaster Ishkur. In any case, the Worm does 250 DRONE dps. That's double what the Ishkur can do. And it can do that while still maintaining 12k EHP. That said, the Worm is technically supposed to be that way. My problem is that its main weapon system (Drones) has no bonus at all.

So kill it's drones, literally the first thing you should do with anything other than a destroyer,
if you can catch it in an ishkur,
you can kill it(most of the time).


You could do the same with the Algos. You close in to kill it with blasters and you will get hit hard by its blasters as well. Theres always counters. This doesn't mean that ship couldn't/shouldn't be better than what it is.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-09-17 19:53:37 UTC
Belen Shields wrote:
Would they be too OP?
Probably yeah, they would be battleship killers. Neat idea and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it explored.

Perhaps a new class of ship would be more appropriate. Not sure it wouldn't be horribly OP though.


Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#18 - 2014-09-17 19:58:38 UTC
Katia Echerie wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Katia Echerie wrote:
14k EHP with 300 DPS is not easy to drop in a blaster Ishkur. In any case, the Worm does 250 DRONE dps. That's double what the Ishkur can do. And it can do that while still maintaining 12k EHP. That said, the Worm is technically supposed to be that way. My problem is that its main weapon system (Drones) has no bonus at all.

So kill it's drones, literally the first thing you should do with anything other than a destroyer,
if you can catch it in an ishkur,
you can kill it(most of the time).


You could do the same with the Algos. You close in to kill it with blasters and you will get hit hard by its blasters as well. Theres always counters. This doesn't mean that ship couldn't/shouldn't be better than what it is.

The algos will pop as soon as it's given even a stern looking at because it doesn't have the resistances the ishkur wouldn't.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#19 - 2014-09-17 20:03:00 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
Belen Shields wrote:
Would they be too OP?
Probably yeah, they would be battleship killers. Neat idea and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it explored.

Perhaps a new class of ship would be more appropriate. Not sure it wouldn't be horribly OP though.



They actually are as it stands, anything more and it's "I can't believe it's not butter ishthar" territory.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#20 - 2014-09-17 20:12:53 UTC
Katia Echerie wrote:
Hawk - Doesn't need changing. It tanks well and applies damage sufficiently well. A slight CPU nerf perhaps to make the use of fitting mods necessary for fitting dual MASB tanks.

Excuse me, what? I can just barely fit a single MASB on a Hawk using a single CPU Upgrade. If anything, the Hawk needs a CPU buff, not a nerf.

I do agree with many of your other observations though. The Jaguar in particular seems to just be in an odd place: it works best as a MSE/AC brawler, but it's Optimal Range bonus is virtually useless in that role. And with the Algos available, the Ishkur seems a bit of an orphan.

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