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Questionable Maneuvering

First post
Author
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#21 - 2014-09-17 02:12:33 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Yeah, when tricks like these help freighter pilots escape ganking death its always "emergent gameplay".
Arguably, the warp speed threshold should scale with the web effect and a web would have no effect on your time to warp.
This would also be a pretty thing to fix. But it gives pilots a way to save their assets, so game on, 'its A-OK'.

On the other hand, when webbing tricks are used in a similar manner to KILL targets and victims start screaming?
Suddenly the 'emergent gameplay' turns into a bannable exploit.
Never mind that faction police frequently killed -10 pilots using this same 'exploit'.

exploit notification from lead gm grimmi

It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them. This is a clear exploit and anyone found abusing this will be dealt with accordingly. Exploiting may result in a permanent suspension from the game. Our Game Design team will be working to deploy a fix for this issue in the near future.


Hooray for coddling. Roll


You probably didn't want to post that even if you are into coddling.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#22 - 2014-09-17 02:53:51 UTC
Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.

When the same 'tricks' are used to trap and kill players, its labelled an 'exploit' or nerfed ASAP.

Orca swap tricks, webs, logoffski, insurance for self-destruction vs Concord, you name it.

The legitimacy of the 'exploit', really, only depends on which type of player is benefiting from it.

Paranoid Loyd
#23 - 2014-09-17 02:57:06 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.

When the same 'tricks' are used to trap and kill players, its labelled an 'exploit' or nerfed ASAP.

Orca swap tricks, webs, logoffski, insurance for self-destruction vs Concord, you name it.

The legitimacy of the 'exploit', really, only depends on which type of player is benefiting from it.



We all benefit from this one, especially the people who learn the intricacies of the game. Not saying working as designed, but working as intended (intentions change based on unforeseen circumstances).

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#24 - 2014-09-17 07:00:17 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
duel webbing
I demand satisfaction!

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#25 - 2014-09-17 07:35:16 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
DST can also use a 10MN MWD for 10 second align times.
Messing around the other day I learned that 10MN AB gets my Iteron aligned in 8 ticks. Need to test on DST.

Most ships with appropriately sized ABs can align in 7.5 seconds by this method. It is certainly the case with DSTs.

The reason the MWD was used is simply its consistent 10 second cycle, until recently the AB had a far longer cycle. When ABs were changed to 10 second base with the AB skill reducing that the AB became the faster route - Even if your AB is only a 100% speed boost you would have to be crazily over-plated not to reach ~40% top speed in 7.5 seconds.
Darth Bladius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-09-17 08:00:04 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:
S I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.


Actually, it is ridiculously simple to explain.

Agility and Inertia affect how long it takes to align to achieve warp at 75% speed. Lowering your top speed simply reduces where that 75% line is.

So in essence (other regions too I'm sure), your align time is reduced by the same ratio your speed is reduced by webificationifying (George Bush plays EvE).


And now tell me I should fit a cargo extender to my crow.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#27 - 2014-09-17 15:25:16 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.


Didn't your GM quote refer to a bug some expansions back, where vindicators could web people to the point of their ship being unable to warp as if disrupted / scrambled?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Prince Kobol
#28 - 2014-09-17 15:33:46 UTC
Dont mind Herr Wilkus, he is still butt hurt over the boomerang tactic being declared an exploit Big smile



Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#29 - 2014-09-17 15:49:39 UTC
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:
So, I was speaking to someone about the long alignment times and what modules I prefer to lower it down. He showed me this technique he called "sling shot webbers" where you start to align then have somebody webify you (you in freighter) and it causes the freighter to warp in almost an instant. I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.

My question was whether this was simply a cool trick or if this is considered an exploit? I hadn't heard of or seen this technique beforehand.


Just part of the game mechanics.
Lucrii Dei
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-09-17 16:12:08 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
It's also the only way to move freighters long distances without slashing your own wrists.
Well, this and autopiloting. I hear autopiloting makes it much less boring, and your trip will be over before you know it!


The correct response.

╔═══ ♥ ═════════════╗

EVEcandy™; An EVE Gallery!

╚══════════════ ♥ ══╝

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-09-17 16:33:50 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.


Didn't your GM quote refer to a bug some expansions back, where vindicators could web people to the point of their ship being unable to warp as if disrupted / scrambled?


I remember that, that's the one Garmon uncovered/used/whatever. Saw it in one of his vids when I was learning PVP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#32 - 2014-09-17 17:15:40 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
The legitimacy of the 'exploit', really, only depends on which type of player is benefiting from it.
Further investigation reveals that the legitimacy of the tactic actually depends on whether it involves tricking the game into thinking a player is in an impossible state.

No popcorn to be had here, but at least I learned something new.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#33 - 2014-09-17 17:36:42 UTC
Darth Bladius wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:
S I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.


Actually, it is ridiculously simple to explain.

Agility and Inertia affect how long it takes to align to achieve warp at 75% speed. Lowering your top speed simply reduces where that 75% line is.

So in essence (other regions too I'm sure), your align time is reduced by the same ratio your speed is reduced by webificationifying (George Bush plays EvE).


And now tell me I should fit a cargo extender to my crow.


Why would you do that? You'd get no benefit other than some meager cargo capacity.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#34 - 2014-09-17 17:42:41 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

On the other hand, when webbing tricks are used in a similar manner to KILL targets and victims start screaming?
Suddenly the 'emergent gameplay' turns into a bannable exploit.

…largely because the webs in the latter case actually, you know, broke the game. They conferred a status that they were not meant to give by making the physics simulation break down. There's a difference between working within the system and breaking it.
Josef Djugashvilis
#35 - 2014-09-17 17:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Tippia wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

On the other hand, when webbing tricks are used in a similar manner to KILL targets and victims start screaming?
Suddenly the 'emergent gameplay' turns into a bannable exploit.

…largely because the webs in the latter case actually, you know, broke the game. They conferred a status that they were not meant to give by making the physics simulation break down. There's a difference between working within the system and breaking it.


It hurts me to this Tippia, but a well earned like from me to you.

Simple clear explanation of the issue at hand.

Thank you.

This is not a signature.

Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-09-17 18:42:18 UTC
Slingshotting, AB/MWD cycling, and the MWD/Cloak trick are all valid uses of game mechanics and have become, in my opinion, very important skills for a hauler. I don't know how I'd do my low-sec PI with MWD/Cloak.
Iain Cariaba
#37 - 2014-09-17 18:58:59 UTC
No!!!!! Using webs to speed the warping of a freighter is an exploit, because [reason that makes no sense]!!!

I swear to [cry/shiptoast/unsub] until this exploit is fixed [for totally unrelated reason that makes even less sense]!!!! How dare freighters be given a way to get off gates quickly and evade almost all attempts to bump them out of alignment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Note: The above is total sarcasm. Besides, it's not like most freighter pilots are smart and use this tactic anyway.
Azov Rassau
Iron Destiny
#38 - 2014-09-17 19:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Azov Rassau
Derrick Miles wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
It's also the only way to move freighters long distances without slashing your own wrists.
Well, this and autopiloting. I hear autopiloting makes it much less boring, and your trip will be over before you know it!

Only if you go through Uedama. Then it's much more interesting.

Also Niarja. One does not simply jump through the gates of Madirmilire.

In the Autopilot fest that is Jita <-> Amarr, I used to keep an eye on freighter movements, hoping to see at least one clever pilot using the webbing technique. I came across one of them once: an Obelisk accompanied by a Crow and an Osprey. I was amazed by how fast that Obelisk entered warp and left grid… It looked like a separate "hauling op" rather than "lazy solo AFK hauling". In other words: Teamwork + dedication + game mechanics = safety.

That is why freighter pilots are advised to bring friends, corpmates (or alts!) and at least try this fine technique once to make the voyages safer and shorter.

But, to do this, they actually have to remain at their keyboard...




edit: foto links

Be the change you want to see in Highsec.

Anti-Ganking Fun: www.gankerjamming.com

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#39 - 2014-09-17 20:15:10 UTC
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:
So, I was speaking to someone about the long alignment times and what modules I prefer to lower it down. He showed me this technique he called "sling shot webbers" where you start to align then have somebody webify you (you in freighter) and it causes the freighter to warp in almost an instant. I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.

My question was whether this was simply a cool trick or if this is considered an exploit? I hadn't heard of or seen this technique beforehand.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4922702#post4922702
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#40 - 2014-09-17 20:21:25 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.

When the same 'tricks' are used to trap and kill players, its labelled an 'exploit' or nerfed ASAP.

Orca swap tricks, webs, logoffski, insurance for self-destruction vs Concord, you name it.

The legitimacy of the 'exploit', really, only depends on which type of player is benefiting from it.




Herr Wilkus' "Tornado Trifecta" had the hammer dropped on it in less than a week after he described how to do it, so he's not talking out of his arse here.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

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