These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

HAC boost
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Anny Jackson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-12-11 12:59:03 UTC
You know they (HACs) need it badly. But what kind of? Well, my proposal is easy - make them immune to MWD disactivation by scramblers. I bet they will become better after this. At least some of them. But it's better than Vaga, Zealot and (perhaps) Ishtar only.

The same bonus would be possible for assault frigates as well.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-12-11 13:25:03 UTC
Ummm, what game are you playing? The only HACs that need any attention are the Eagle and Sacrilege* and neither of them would benefit at all from this change.

Quote:
I bet they will become better after this

No **** Sherlock, they'll become outright overpowered with this.


*Yes, I know about the Deimos, but probably best to wait and see how it is with the hybrid buff.
Anny Jackson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-12-11 14:00:17 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Ummm, what game are you playing? The only HACs that need any attention are the Eagle and Sacrilege* and neither of them would benefit at all from this change.

Quote:
I bet they will become better after this

No **** Sherlock, they'll become outright overpowered with this.


*Yes, I know about the Deimos, but probably best to wait and see how it is with the hybrid buff.


I bet it's you who're playing the different game. Vaga is crap comparing to Cynabal, Zealot is using for very restricted role (anti-frigate), Deimos is crap even with hybrid buff, Cerberus is just freaking useless. And sniping HACs will be useless (since new T3 BCs) even with suggested boost.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#4 - 2011-12-11 14:16:15 UTC
... Hmm, ok looks like I'm going to have to try and use simple words here as you don't seem to know much about this game.

Quote:
Vaga is crap comparing to Cynabal

The Cynabal is better because it's a pirate faction cruiser. (And an Angel ship which are overpowered all round.)
Ever noticed how the Cynabal is about 50-70mil more expensive than a Vagabond? Yeah that's why.

Quote:
Zealot is using for very restricted role (anti-frigate)

Hey look, someone who has no idea how a Zealot works. Zealots are not anti-frigate ships, they're armour HAC gang damage dealers, putting out 400-500 DPS out to 40km range while mounting excellent resists.

Quote:
Cerberus is just freaking useless.

Yes, 500 DPS at 40km range with a 40k EHP buffer and superb resists is completely useless.
Idiot.

Quote:
And sniping HACs will be useless (since new T3 BCs) even with suggested boost.

Yup, but sniper HACs have been pretty much obsolete long before those came along anyway so nothing has really changed.

Quote:
Deimos is crap even with hybrid buff

Not really, no. Better DPS, easier to fit, faster and more agile than before. It can also mount a surprisingly good active tank.

I get the feeling you've either never actually flown any of these ships, you can't possibly have used them in a proper gang and still be this clueless.
The only HACs that really do need looking at are the Sacrilege (needs another low) and the Eagle (needs better fitting and a drone bay.)
Anny Jackson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-12-11 16:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Anny Jackson
Pirate or not, overpowered or ok, Cynabal is much better than Vaga. And the price difference isn't that big. Vaga is still popular because people are greedy bastards (some of them at least). They prefer to pay 100kk less and suck than 100kk more and rock...

As to Cerberus, it's just lol. Compare that statistics to Drake... Deimos is crap, no matter what you think of it... And Ishtar is a good drone-ship, but drone-ships aren't very popular nowdays in general. So what do we have? 2.5 hacs out of 8 are semi-decent? Or it's 2 out of 8? Yeah, great.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#6 - 2011-12-11 17:16:11 UTC
Anny Jackson wrote:
Pirate or not, overpowered or ok, Cynabal is much better than Vaga. And the price difference isn't that big. Vaga is still popular because people are greedy bastards (some of them at least). They prefer to pay 100kk less and suck than 100kk more and rock...

As to Cerberus, it's just lol. Compare that statistics to Drake... Deimos is crap, no matter what you think of it... And Ishtar is a good drone-ship, but drone-ships aren't very popular nowdays in general. So what do we have? 2.5 hacs out of 8 are semi-decent? Or it's 2 out of 8? Yeah, great.



That Vaga example sounds like a free market working as intended. If you have more cash to blow, you get better stuff.

And I will admit that the Cerberus' stats aren't amazing compared to the Drake, but it's made more for sniping than brawling. And if you are just shrugging off the Ishtar, you probably don't realize that it's probably the most flown HAC out there (and for good reason).
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-12-11 17:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Pirate or not, overpowered or ok, Cynabal is much better than Vaga.

And the Vigilant is better than the Deimos. Your point? Pirate faction ships are supposed to be better than their HAC counterparts. are you really this dense that I need to explain it again? In fact, cases where the pirate cruiser isn't better than its T2 counterpart is a cause for concern.

Quote:
As to Cerberus, it's just lol. Compare that statistics to Drak

I have compared it, and unlike you I've actually flown it - and yes, it's inferior to the Drake if you take it into scram range. Otherwise it's an excellent ship.

Quote:
Deimos is crap

Supporting evidence please. Post-buff it's a very workable HAC. Legion boost it and you can get a 1k DPS active tank coupled with decent DPS and high mobility.
Edit: just did a bit quick bit of EFTing, and thanks to the buff it's now an armour HAC about on par with the Zealot.

Quote:
And Ishtar is a good drone-ship, but drone-ships aren't very popular nowdays in general.

Umm, so according to you - the Ishtar being a good ship is invalidated by the fact that other drone ships don't get flown much?
The Ishtar is an amazing ship if used right.

Quote:
So what do we have? 2.5 hacs out of 8 are semi-decent? Or it's 2 out of 8? Yeah, great.

Let's add it up shall we:

Sacrilege - needs a low, otherwise decent. Bit too niché though, really. Like the Deimos though it has a phenomenal active tank with the right setup.
Zealot- amazing ship, despite your hilarious lack of knowledge about it. Actually forms the backbone of entire fleet doctrines.

Cerberus - Very mean HAM ship and perfectly capable HML ship (it can infact match a Drake for pure missile DPS output.)
Eagle - Useless. Buff it.

Ishtar - Great ship, amazingly versatile with strong tank. Only drawback is higher skill reqs than other HACs to use it well.
Deimos - went from crap to decent with the Gallente/hybrid buffs, throw a booster T3 on it and it becomes very dangerous.

Vagabond - poster-boy for nanoship combat, very solid all-round.
Muninn - Arguably obsolete, thanks to a combination of the Hurricane and Tornado. Poor slot layout doesn't help there. Makes a passable armour HAC actually but the Zealot is better.

So to summarise:
Good HACs - 3: Zealot, Vagabond, Ishtar, Cerberus
Decent HACs - 2: Sacrilege, Deimos
Useless HACs - 2: Eagle, Muninn

And of the 2 useless HACs, neither would be fixed with your stupid MWD buff idea.
Conclusion: OP has no clue what he's talking about.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-12-11 17:52:01 UTC
Quote:
And I will admit that the Cerberus' stats aren't amazing compared to the Drake, but it's made more for sniping than brawling.

This. To the simpleton of an OP: Please show me your Drake fit that can lob HAMs at 45km.
Arbiter Reformed
I Have a Plan
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2011-12-11 18:02:40 UTC
lol ham cerb i think your prom in disguise,

when tier 3 bc become cheaper there will be very little reason to fly hacs at all,
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-12-11 18:05:12 UTC
Quote:
lol ham cerb i think your prom in disguise,

Umm, what?

Quote:
when tier 3 bc become cheaper there will be very little reason to fly hacs at all,

Their price has settled. HACs are still viable and can do things tier 3s can't. (Like survive being attacked by a Rifter)
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#11 - 2011-12-11 21:01:08 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

Conclusion: OP has no clue what he's talking about.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#12 - 2011-12-11 21:18:31 UTC
Also, I think the eagle has potential now that it can actually fit 250mm rails without needing two slots for pg modules. I was playing on the test server with a fit with CN antimatter doing (EFT) 300ish DPS at 40ish km, about 50k EHP, doing about 1200m/s. It needs an RCUII to fit the full rack of 250mm rails, LSE, and mwd but I think it has potential for shield hac gangs.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-12-11 22:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Easier to fit yes, but massively outclassed by various others. The Cerberus being a biggie.
(To put it this way: for the same cruiser skill, you get a solid buffered ship that can lob 500 missile DPS out to 45km)
Arbiter Reformed
I Have a Plan
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2011-12-11 22:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Arbiter Reformed
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
lol ham cerb i think your prom in disguise,

Umm, what?

Quote:
when tier 3 bc become cheaper there will be very little reason to fly hacs at all,

Their price has settled. HACs are still viable and can do things tier 3s can't. (Like survive being attacked by a Rifter)


last time i went out in a tornado i killed 2 slicers with ease

you really think a zealot cant get soloed by a rifter?

tier 3 bc can kill frigs pretty easy when was the last time you 800mm had trouble tracking on a machariel?


the idea that these ships are ballanced because they are slightly (if actually not really) vulnerable to fast takle is a really stupid way to talk about balance, in the context of when these will be used they are vastly superior to hacs in any situation when signiture radius or all out tank is not required,

also consider that they are by and large faster than non nano fit cruisers, my curse goes 1700ms with two nanoes my tonado does 1650, with a web!

their tank is also not as bad as people say my 1500dps naga has 35kehp, i think thats pretty reasonable considering resists are good, that goes over 45 if i bother to fit a dcII.. oh i have a point and web on that too, and do 600 dps at 35km.

in essence cruisers and frigs need a speed boost across the board. immune to scrams wouldnt help the situation as generally you dont want to be in scram range anyway, bringing back a hit and run ability would be great

20% to cruisers and frigs would be just about right. it would mean ti3 bc are still reletivly faster than normal bc and bs, but considerably slower than hacs and also far more vulnerable to frigs.. this would also help the whole hml situation


also just to add, i fully realise t2 cruisers are still used in niche situations, and some would say that is where t2 should stay. but something about afterburners makes me sad..

not to mention that argument tends to forget that allot of t2 just dosnt have a nieche to fill anymore, cerb is a good example, eagle another, damps etc...
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-12-11 22:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Not sure on a speed boost to frigates but one on cruisers would be ideal, the gap between them and BCs is way too small.
As for Tier3 vs HAC - HACs have two things that tier 3s generally don't: sig radius and tank. Zealots are used for a reason, you know.
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#16 - 2011-12-11 22:27:22 UTC
Arbiter, while your 20% may be much, I do agree that small and medium-sized ships should have a speed buff overall.

Duchess, your analyzation of HACs seems correct. The Eagle and Muninn both need some lovin, and since they are sniper/tanker HACs, they could probably benefit from having a buff in those categories.

Where the science gets done
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#17 - 2011-12-12 01:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lykouleon
If you think HACs need a boost, you need to uninstall and get your head examined.

There is literally no other way I can express how wrong you're doing it.

The only HAC that needs to be looked at is the Sacrilege due to its grid and layout, nothing wrong with the ship other than that. All other HACs fit their roles as intended (if you actually know how to fly them...)

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#18 - 2011-12-12 03:39:17 UTC
Nice troll but I have to deduct a few points. So -1 for posting too many replies, -1 for failing to be a threadnaught and -1 since I caught it. Your troll score is 7/10. Well done.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#19 - 2011-12-12 04:45:24 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Nice troll but I have to deduct a few points. So -1 for posting too many replies, -1 for failing to be a threadnaught and -1 since I caught it. Your troll score is 7/10. Well done.



you are too generous....this is the AF bonus always brought up (either scram or web immunity) as the missing bonus recycled for HACS.


.
Anny Jackson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-12-12 12:17:15 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:
If you think HACs need a boost, you need to uninstall and get your head examined.

There is literally no other way I can express how wrong you're doing it.

The only HAC that needs to be looked at is the Sacrilege due to its grid and layout, nothing wrong with the ship other than that. All other HACs fit their roles as intended (if you actually know how to fly them...)


Ye-ye-ye. Alright, name any popular and useful role that HAC will perform better than BC? Ok, armor AB gangs. A pure fun standart, isn't acceptible for small gangs and solo, but ok. Sure, it's mostly for Zealots and Fleet Stabbers... Vaga is good for small gangs and decent for solo. Sure, Cynabal is better, and I peronally prefer nano-hurricane for this, but anyway... What else?
12Next page