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Gates!
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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#101 - 2014-09-16 17:18:19 UTC
Don Pera Saissore wrote:

Ok, i understand that. Bubbling the gate is a way for them to control the traffic and guard the resources. I have no problem with that. My problem is that players are thrown in a blockade often without knowing what awaits them while the campers on the other hand can be lazy and just wait for a ship to appear and get blown up. IMO it disregards the concept of risk and reward. For an unprepared traveler there is no risk, there is no potential loss, death is guarantied and the campers are rewarded for simply showing up and pressing f1. Wouldn't it be better if there was a way to reliably determine the threat? Then it would be up to the pilot to make the decision weather to risk his assets.

Let me make it clear, i have no problem with losing my ship, i wouldn't be playing if i did. My issue is pointlessly dying on a gate because i cant see what is going on on the other side.

As it is often the case in GD, OP comes and demands that the game changes to accommodate his needs, i do not share his views, nor do i want gates to be removed.


Bolded the important word.

And no, as I explained, Death is not 'guaranteed', I've escaped many a camp, and died to a few despite my best effort (because EVE mirrors real life in that you can do everything right and still die). There are ways to determine the threat: friends. This is an MMO, you can solo but it's not advised.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#102 - 2014-09-16 17:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Don Pera Saissore wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Allrighty then, I'll make an attempt. You see, the OP is actually thinking that travel in Eve should be entirely unrestricted. That's simply not the case. Entities (corps, alliances) will lay claim to space, whether through SOV or through ownership of the moons and POCO's. These are investments worthy of protection, and as such these groups will attempt to safeguard what they own (and what they desire to won) against neutrals. To them, the OP is an invader with unknown intentions. Choke points allow people to actually claim a piece of space and create the predictable conditions under which other people can farm and carebear.

Ok, i understand that. Bubbling the gate is a way for them to control the traffic and guard the resources. I have no problem with that. My problem is that players are thrown in a blockade often without knowing what awaits them while the campers on the other hand can be lazy and just wait for a ship to appear and get blown up. IMO it disregards the concept of risk and reward. For an unprepared traveler there is no risk, there is no potential loss, death is guarantied and the campers are rewarded for simply showing up and pressing f1. Wouldn't it be better if there was a way to reliably determine the threat? Then it would be up to the pilot to make the decision weather to risk his assets.

Let me make it clear, i have no problem with losing my ship, i wouldn't be playing if i did. My issue is pointlessly dying on a gate because i cant see what is going on on the other side.

As it is often the case in GD, OP comes and demands that the game changes to accommodate his needs, i do not share his views, nor do i want gates to be removed.


You are a singular pilot, incapable of escalation. This is the factor you disregard. The risk / reward swings in the defender's advantage because the risk to obtain that space has already been suffered. Through previous conquests, a status quo has been reached; an equilibrium between disruption of PVE activities and the number of people to whom this is of importance. Nullsec allows you to create this environment while lowsec favours less travel restrictions at the cost of constant potential PVE disruptions. There is a way to reliably determine the thread: surrender cheap assets, upon that you may risk nothing valuable untill threats have been properly assesed. Trespassing on the doorstep of the mighty comes with sacrifices. Think of risk / reward at the corporate level, not that of the singular pilot.

It is also a way to motivate social engineering and politicking. Eve would not be Eve if there would not be politics, if one could not worm his way towards an objective instead of grabbing it guns blazing.
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2014-09-16 19:27:41 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
I found the reason for my recent aversion towards this game, the reason I stopped logging in. I still log on to update my queue, but that's about it, I did not feel any desire to undock in the past 4 months. Did not know it at first, now I can see it clearly.

The community is great, the way the game is set up - with everything depending on players is also great. But I like to be able to enjoy a game alone also, and i can't because of gates. I just reached my limit for jumping blindly through gates in null sec, with all my loot. Also I have a combat ship in one station, I scan something in some other system with my Buzzard, then I need to get my ship, and this involves more lottery jumps. I feel caged. I can't just log in and do stuff because there are - gates.
I'm tired of asking every minute - "how is this gate?". This - in the best case, when I have someone to ask, and I get an up to date answer.

The game is also pay to win. Pay for two accounts, use a scout with an interceptor - and you will never be caught on gate ever again.


If you're that risk averse, go to highsec.

Me, when I go to low/null, I just go ahead and jump blindly, if I die oh well.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#104 - 2014-09-16 23:18:24 UTC
Leoric Firesword wrote:
Tian Toralen wrote:
I found the reason for my recent aversion towards this game, the reason I stopped logging in. I still log on to update my queue, but that's about it, I did not feel any desire to undock in the past 4 months. Did not know it at first, now I can see it clearly.

The community is great, the way the game is set up - with everything depending on players is also great. But I like to be able to enjoy a game alone also, and i can't because of gates. I just reached my limit for jumping blindly through gates in null sec, with all my loot. Also I have a combat ship in one station, I scan something in some other system with my Buzzard, then I need to get my ship, and this involves more lottery jumps. I feel caged. I can't just log in and do stuff because there are - gates.
I'm tired of asking every minute - "how is this gate?". This - in the best case, when I have someone to ask, and I get an up to date answer.

The game is also pay to win. Pay for two accounts, use a scout with an interceptor - and you will never be caught on gate ever again.


If you're that risk averse, go to highsec.

Me, when I go to low/null, I just go ahead and jump blindly, if I die oh well.




With that hood I would say you are doing everything blindly at this point.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#105 - 2014-09-16 23:25:38 UTC
It's cheaper to have a second account, consider it free by plexing it with the isk saved by not dieing.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#106 - 2014-09-16 23:41:45 UTC
While I do agree that jumping in blind sucks, there is something that can be done to minimize the risk.

Step 1: Set destination
Step 2: Open star map
Step 3: Check Statistics
Step 4: Check things like "ships destroyed in the last hour", "pods destroyed in the last hour", and "Average pilots in space in the last 30 minutes".

Avg pilots in space + ships destroyed can indicate a gate camp
Ships destroyed vs pods destroyed can indicate if there are bubbles or not

Although it's funny that the statistics has an option for Cynos but doesn't have one for bubbles.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Don Pera Saissore
#107 - 2014-09-17 12:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Don Pera Saissore
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
You are a singular pilot, incapable of escalation. This is the factor you disregard. The risk / reward swings in the defender's advantage because the risk to obtain that space has already been suffered. Through previous conquests, a status quo has been reached; an equilibrium between disruption of PVE activities and the number of people to whom this is of importance. Nullsec allows you to create this environment while lowsec favours less travel restrictions at the cost of constant potential PVE disruptions. There is a way to reliably determine the thread: surrender cheap assets, upon that you may risk nothing valuable untill threats have been properly assesed. Trespassing on the doorstep of the mighty comes with sacrifices. Think of risk / reward at the corporate level, not that of the singular pilot.

It is also a way to motivate social engineering and politicking. Eve would not be Eve if there would not be politics, if one could not worm his way towards an objective instead of grabbing it guns blazing.

I have little experience in sov warfare matters but i find it hard to believe that camping a gate will prevent an entity from invading and laying a claim to that system.

Controlling the planets, moons, sites and the belts is the only way an entity can exercise ownership of a system.

Traveling is not entirely unrestricted but a determined player will enter a system no matter how camped its gates are. Once inside claiming its resources is a different story because the owners will hunt the trespasser, disrupt his activities.

There are ways to bypass the gate choke points, i don't understand why people are still clinging to this obsolete conflict generator.

What would happen if ccp was honest in their advertisement, if they explained how traveling works and how camping a gate is a legitimate tactic. What would be the reaction of players interested in joining this fine community if they were aware of this mechanic.
Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#108 - 2014-09-18 20:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
Imagine if EVE was played on land, something I imagined Dust was going to be. A mmorpg played on a giant planet, or multiple planets. It just happens that this land map is entirely mountainous, and players can only move from one little opening in the mountains to another through narrow canyons. (there is no flight let's say, except if using expensive stuff, similar to jumps in space EVE).

AND - there is no way to visually see what's in front of you, until you enter the canyon. There are black walls at their entrances. You can only ask players on the other side (if there are), you can check some statistics, and stuff. And you have to do this tens of times a day, always gambling your destroyable equipment, because some guys always take residence in these canyons. Well, that's how Eve is now, just in space.

Yes - of course, once in, there are ways to escape, still it's always a gamble.

New games are appearing, placed on a land surface, or in space, without this canyon system.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#109 - 2014-09-18 21:52:19 UTC
Samuel Wess wrote:
It's cheaper to have a second account, consider it free by plexing it with the isk saved by not dieing.



I would say that all things that require you to get a second/extra account is a sort of pay to win strategy. I know that people will hurf and blurf that it's not MT, but even if you plex the extra accounts that creates the demand for plex.

The mental gymnastics necessary to not see the "get more accounts" strategy as a means to indirect P2W and the need for them built into gate mechanics borders on Stockholm Syndrome IMO.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#110 - 2014-09-18 23:19:17 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
Imagine if EVE was played on land, something I imagined Dust was going to be. A mmorpg played on a giant planet, or multiple planets. It just happens that this land map is entirely mountainous, and players can only move from one little opening in the mountains to another through narrow canyons. (there is no flight let's say, except if using expensive stuff, similar to jumps in space EVE).

AND - there is no way to visually see what's in front of you, until you enter the canyon. There are black walls at their entrances. You can only ask players on the other side (if there are), you can check some statistics, and stuff. And you have to do this tens of times a day, always gambling your destroyable equipment, because some guys always take residence in these canyons. Well, that's how Eve is now, just in space.

Yes - of course, once in, there are ways to escape, still it's always a gamble.

New games are appearing, placed on a land surface, or in space, without this canyon system.


Dude, just quit. Gates are never going away, and several different people have given you several different means of safer traveling and you just stomp on your hanky and keep complaining.

Also, your analogy sux, unless the other side of the canyon were several light years away.

Anyway, bye.


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#111 - 2014-09-19 02:01:21 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:

I have played PvP games. EvE is not PvP.

There is very little skill used in EvE. It is either Rock (I have more SP) vs scissors (less SP). Or it is Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock vs Scissors (hope I don't have to explain that one).

If CCP made this a skill game people would leave in droves. If you and your ten buds couldn't camp gates and had to put the same amount of effort in as your prey, you would most likely leave. If a new player could beat a veteran player because piloting skill>skill points, even more people would leave.

People like saying they play a PvP game. Unfortunately it is far from the truth with EvE.


It seems to me you have a very narrow viewpoint on 'skill'. Even what you consider as rock-rock-rock-rock-rock vs scissors, it requires the following skills

1. social skills to make & motivate your buddies (otherwise you won't get to build your own blob)

2. planning skills to build your fleet comp (sh*t fleet will get pwned by the right gang of much smaller size)

3. intelligence gathering skills to judge the chance of bait+counter blob coming your way even if the supposedly helpless lone target jumps through gate (many blobs get baited/hot dropped by making wrong calls)

4. organisational skills to move and act as a cohesive unit (self-explanatory)

5. basic reading comprehension and listening skills to learn and understand the game mechanic (so many 'impossible' situation for solo players can be avoided all together if you understand how low-null works)

6. skills to evaluate the situation and make best tactical decision given the circumstance you are in (no amount of SP or ISK thrown into a ship will save you if you judge the situation wrong and make a wrong choice)

7. etc, etc, etc

And I've seen people who have all the above, plus the 'twitch' skills (which is what you seem to refer to) fight & win against rock-rock-rock-rock-rock-rock. And it's very common that a very low-sp pilot with the right fit and knowledge of his own weakness and strength can beat a much older pilot with bling fit who doesn't know what he's doing. This happens every day all over New Eden.

Also, engineering a situation where you increase your chance of winning is also a skill that requires understanding of game mechanic, psychological warfare, planning and preparation.

So you are simply wrong if you don't think eve pvp does not involve skills. It actually involves even more skills than most other pvp games out there.



Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#112 - 2014-09-19 13:09:15 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:

I have played PvP games. EvE is not PvP.

There is very little skill used in EvE. It is either Rock (I have more SP) vs scissors (less SP). Or it is Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock-Rock vs Scissors (hope I don't have to explain that one).

If CCP made this a skill game people would leave in droves. If you and your ten buds couldn't camp gates and had to put the same amount of effort in as your prey, you would most likely leave. If a new player could beat a veteran player because piloting skill>skill points, even more people would leave.

People like saying they play a PvP game. Unfortunately it is far from the truth with EvE.


It seems to me you have a very narrow viewpoint on 'skill'. Even what you consider as rock-rock-rock-rock-rock vs scissors, it requires the following skills

1. social skills to make & motivate your buddies (otherwise you won't get to build your own blob)

2. planning skills to build your fleet comp (sh*t fleet will get pwned by the right gang of much smaller size)

3. intelligence gathering skills to judge the chance of bait+counter blob coming your way even if the supposedly helpless lone target jumps through gate (many blobs get baited/hot dropped by making wrong calls)

4. organisational skills to move and act as a cohesive unit (self-explanatory)

5. basic reading comprehension and listening skills to learn and understand the game mechanic (so many 'impossible' situation for solo players can be avoided all together if you understand how low-null works)

6. skills to evaluate the situation and make best tactical decision given the circumstance you are in (no amount of SP or ISK thrown into a ship will save you if you judge the situation wrong and make a wrong choice)

7. etc, etc, etc

And I've seen people who have all the above, plus the 'twitch' skills (which is what you seem to refer to) fight & win against rock-rock-rock-rock-rock-rock. And it's very common that a very low-sp pilot with the right fit and knowledge of his own weakness and strength can beat a much older pilot with bling fit who doesn't know what he's doing. This happens every day all over New Eden.

Also, engineering a situation where you increase your chance of winning is also a skill that requires understanding of game mechanic, psychological warfare, planning and preparation.

So you are simply wrong if you don't think eve pvp does not involve skills. It actually involves even more skills than most other pvp games out there.





+1 here, especially in identifying the posters narrow view.

I encounter it all the time as a PVE player. You get other PVE players who say "pve is boring" because it doesn't change. I find fun in treating PVE is an "engineering exercise" and finding new ways to beat it. like FoF missiles, finding a use for Defender Missiles, new uses for smartbombs and ECM burst (I have a smart bombing ECM bursting Sentry Ishtar that I use for null sec anoms that is quite funny to actually watch lol).'

The average PVE player (like the average MMO gamer) expects the developer to hand deliver fun to them. The sandbox PVEr knws that fun lies in finding new and different ways to do things.

Likewise, the narrow minded player thinks that the only skill is skill in piloting a space ship, where as there are LOTS of different ways to employ and display skill.
Jandor Ikahrus
Doomheim
#113 - 2014-09-19 13:55:50 UTC
Just give players the ability to fit a drone or probe or something they can fire at gates that pops out on the other side and sends information back, unless it's blown up, which tells you someone is camping it anyway.

Also tells the campers that there is some scared guy on the other side worried about being exploded.

win/win/win
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-09-19 14:01:05 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:

New games are appearing, placed on a land surface, or in space, without this canyon system.


And none of them will ever stack up to the single-shard PVP majesty that is EVE Online. You're quite welcome to downgrade at your own discretion, no one is holding a gun to your head.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#115 - 2014-09-19 14:02:06 UTC
Jandor Ikahrus wrote:
Just give players the ability to fit a drone or probe or something they can fire at gates that pops out on the other side and sends information back, unless it's blown up, which tells you someone is camping it anyway.

Also tells the campers that there is some scared guy on the other side worried about being exploded.

win/win/win


That's called "a scout". This is an MMO, not "1v10 newtonian fluid space flight laser simulator".
Jandor Ikahrus
Doomheim
#116 - 2014-09-19 14:13:15 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Jandor Ikahrus wrote:
Just give players the ability to fit a drone or probe or something they can fire at gates that pops out on the other side and sends information back, unless it's blown up, which tells you someone is camping it anyway.

Also tells the campers that there is some scared guy on the other side worried about being exploded.

win/win/win


That's called "a scout". This is an MMO, not "1v10 newtonian fluid space flight laser simulator".


I find it's more often called "an alt"...
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-09-19 14:14:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Desimus Maximus
Do you not drive in RL either because of those damned traffic lights and stop signs? You never know when you're gonna get ganked by a woman driver while passing through an intersection.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#118 - 2014-09-19 15:11:47 UTC
Jandor Ikahrus wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Jandor Ikahrus wrote:
Just give players the ability to fit a drone or probe or something they can fire at gates that pops out on the other side and sends information back, unless it's blown up, which tells you someone is camping it anyway.

Also tells the campers that there is some scared guy on the other side worried about being exploded.

win/win/win


That's called "a scout". This is an MMO, not "1v10 newtonian fluid space flight laser simulator".


I find it's more often called "an alt"...


Then I think you need to make a friend or hire someone to act like one.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#119 - 2014-09-19 15:12:19 UTC
Jandor Ikahrus wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Jandor Ikahrus wrote:
Just give players the ability to fit a drone or probe or something they can fire at gates that pops out on the other side and sends information back, unless it's blown up, which tells you someone is camping it anyway.

Also tells the campers that there is some scared guy on the other side worried about being exploded.

win/win/win


That's called "a scout". This is an MMO, not "1v10 newtonian fluid space flight laser simulator".


I find it's more often called "an alt"...




The scout account must be paid for with money or PLEX(purchased with money). I call it Pay2Win.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#120 - 2014-09-19 16:23:38 UTC
I might be late in asking, but at which gate is your stuff situated at?

Thanks.

Hey guys.