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Gates!
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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#81 - 2014-09-15 17:32:33 UTC
Know thy neighbours, and covet not what they posses. Or just frakkin' kill them and loot their corpses, pick your poison really. Lol

To me making that blind jump is my own stupidity getting me killed. I just accept this a lot easier then most. If I make it out alive then *phew* and if not, my friends now know your fleet composition. I might just be inclined to reship and crash your camp, depending on what that fleet looks like.

That spawn camping is a legitimate mechanic may stem from the fact this game is old and archaic, a feature I happen to enjoy about it. That this introduces some instances where your chances are 0%... so be it.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#82 - 2014-09-15 17:35:32 UTC
Captain Awkward wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ah, so the game is supposed to provide you 100% safety? Then the problem is you not knowing how to use your ship, it's you being in this game to begin with. Dying is a part of EVE, one a good EVE player learns to live with and shrug off.


No. You twist my words. You may think im a carebare wanting CCP to provide 100% safety. Thats not what I said.
I want to have a fighting chance. If I die I want to die knowing that it was my own falt that killed me. Not a game mechanic that was unavoidable.

Gatecamps are the exact oposite. You have to make a jump blindly without knowing if there is a bubblecamp waiting on the other side or if the gate is clear.
If you make the wrong decicion based on no information to help you make that decicion, then you have a very high chance of getting killed IF there is a gatecamp.

Thats not a fighting chance, that is bringing lamps to the slaughterbank. Or like I said, russian roulette.

If you want to kill me, than hunt me down. Do something for your loot and killmail.. Sitting on a closed door with a shotgun pointed on it is just damm lame.
I would throw a flashbang throguh the door if I could. But I gues the game is not sandbox enough for this.

If you want to do something in a system like ratting or exploration or mining or PI, thats when you should have to face the consequences of PvP. But you should have the option to get into system in the first place without comming suicide by even trying.



This indicates that your idea of 'a fighting chance' is 'I will most assuredly get away'. That last sentence I highlighted is exactly wrong. If you want to get into the system without risking a gate camp, you could:

A- used a scout (either a friend, or an alt of your own)

B- used a ship capable of ignoring a bubble camp such as a tech3 or interceptor

C- used a jump capable ship such as a black ops, or carrier, stealth bomber , recon and have someone bridge you in etc etc

D- Blind Jump in a ship fit to survive long enough to get back to a gate (like my travel mach).

E- Blind jump and learn how to evade (in a ship that can evade)

or

F- use k-space to k-space wormholes like the one I used to get from null sec to 7 jumps from Amarr yesterday.

Yet somehow none of those options fit the bill right. No, the game must HAND you entrance through a gate where you don't have eyes on the other side right?

The problem here is your unrealistic and highly 'entitled' expectations, not some imaginary problem with the existence of gates. Anyone who can't deal with gates should either never leave high sec, or should live in wormhole space.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#83 - 2014-09-15 17:36:20 UTC
Don Pera Saissore wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
No, it's your fault for not knowing how to use a FRIGATE SIZED SHIP (ie the safest size of ship in the game) in null sec. The mach needs that stuff because it's a freaking Battleship lol.

Allow me to post the Retribution travel fit.


What kind of a gate camp are we talking about here, a lone ****** in a sabre? If thats the case then even an epithal can do it.

Please dont patronize me, i may be less experienced than you but im not stupid, i know enough about game mechanics to survive in null.


Obviously not.
Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2014-09-15 23:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
Ok, maybe this game is not for me.

Gates everywhere! I did pay for 2 accounts once, when I was caught on EVE, and thought I need an industrial character. But I found a much better use for him - during the Fountain war, I used my 2 accounts to scout for myself, got myself into TEST staging system, with a Crane, and a fast align frigate, and started stealing from wrecks, filling the Crane. Also had a few more frigates stashed into a 0.0 station, as backup, and set my clone there. Getting there and back was tedious, but fun. Looks like I don't really have time or want to invest the time it takes for this game to be fun.

ChromeStriker - you said you want my stuff? Contact me, I will trade you most of my stuff. I think you need to get a character into BNI. Will keep a Buzzard and an interceptor - maybe someday I get back. Now I'm just training until the time expires. Have around ~ 400 million worth of ships and stuff in various stations.

First one to contact me with a request, here or in-game I will contract him my stuff :)

---

Edit - I donated my stuff, so no more stuff.
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-09-16 00:40:53 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
I found the reason for my recent aversion towards this game, the reason I stopped logging in. I still log on to update my queue, but that's about it, I did not feel any desire to undock in the past 4 months. Did not know it at first, now I can see it clearly.

The community is great, the way the game is set up - with everything depending on players is also great. But I like to be able to enjoy a game alone also, and i can't because of gates. I just reached my limit for jumping blindly through gates in null sec, with all my loot. Also I have a combat ship in one station, I scan something in some other system with my Buzzard, then I need to get my ship, and this involves more lottery jumps. I feel caged. I can't just log in and do stuff because there are - gates.
I'm tired of asking every minute - "how is this gate?". This - in the best case, when I have someone to ask, and I get an up to date answer.

The game is also pay to win. Pay for two accounts, use a scout with an interceptor - and you will never be caught on gate ever again.

You dont have to use gates. Make sure your path is shown in space.... point your pixels at the next bright shiny star the gate is pointing at. Activate MWD and in about 30 years you will get to your destination.
Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2014-09-16 10:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Awkward
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yet somehow none of those options fit the bill right. No, the game must HAND you entrance through a gate where you don't have eyes on the other side right?

The problem here is your unrealistic and highly 'entitled' expectations, not some imaginary problem with the existence of gates. Anyone who can't deal with gates should either never leave high sec, or should live in wormhole space.


Take a look at your own points. You suggest bridging and jumping or using wormholes. So obiously my "imaginary problem" with gates is big enough so you realy suggest I should use a titan bridge to avoid gates in the first place. You realise I just want to pass from one system to another?

I dont say it is not possible to evade a gatecamp. All the ways you discribed to go are possible. I can even add some more that you forgott.

G- Multibox 255 Accounts so you can jump though with a armada of ships and overwellm the gatecampers
H- 6000+ Accounts so you can have a character in very system of EvE. You never have to use a gate again. Yay.

Those are also possible ways to get through a gatecamp. Completely nuts, but still possible.
So of course I can use a titan to bride a single T1 cruiser from system A to system B if I had a titan or knew someone with a titan. But is this not a little out of proportion for the task at hand?

If you think some dudes with a interdictor should be able to lock down a gate for solo traveling non T3 ships than thats you opinion.

As so often in discussions like this one, you keep explaning what fancy stuff you can pull of to go around the criticized game mechanic and you still fail to explain why changing the said game mechanic would be sutch a bad idea.

Or the other way around

Don Pera Saissore wrote:
Maybe op would feel better if someone could rationally explain why is there a need for this kind of choke points.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#87 - 2014-09-16 12:50:29 UTC
Fit for travel and carry a mobile depot?

Use an alt to scout?

Use something with a jump drive?

Not today spaghetti.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#88 - 2014-09-16 13:00:32 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Fit for travel and carry a mobile depot?

Use an alt to scout?

Use something with a jump drive?


TOO HARD!!!! And using a gate requires clicking on things, too much effort!!!

No, CCP should implement some kind of way for people to just 'think' what system they want to be in and a GM will move players to a safe spot in that system. Because using the gates that 10s of thousands of EVE players have used to move around the game for the past decade is now somehow asking too damn much lol.

Sorry if i exploded anyone's sarcasm meters?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#89 - 2014-09-16 13:10:52 UTC
Captain Awkward wrote:


Take a look at your own points. You suggest bridging and jumping or using wormholes. So obiously my "imaginary problem" with gates is big enough so you realy suggest I should use a titan bridge to avoid gates in the first place. You realise I just want to pass from one system to another?


You realize that you are focusing on one point when the real point is that:

Gate travel is not hard, and if you know what you are doing it's not dangerous, even if it is dangerous this is just a video game in the 1st place, and if you can't even deal with that fact, their are ways around gates SUCH AS bridges and wormholes.

Quote:

I dont say it is not possible to evade a gatecamp. All the ways you discribed to go are possible. I can even add some more that you forgott.

G- Multibox 255 Accounts so you can jump though with a armada of ships and overwellm the gatecampers
H- 6000+ Accounts so you can have a character in very system of EvE. You never have to use a gate again. Yay.

Those are also possible ways to get through a gatecamp. Completely nuts, but still possible.
So of course I can use a titan to bride a single T1 cruiser from system A to system B if I had a titan or knew someone with a titan. But is this not a little out of proportion for the task at hand?


OR you could use a frigate with a cloak and MWD and learn how to evade.

Quote:

If you think some dudes with a interdictor should be able to lock down a gate for solo traveling non T3 ships than thats you opinion.


That is my opinion?

Thatis MY opinion????

No!! {kicks dude into pit of death} THIS.IS.EVE ONLINE. {flexes crossfit Abs}

If you can't hack it, it's not the game's fault.

Quote:

As so often in discussions like this one, you keep explaning what fancy stuff you can pull of to go around the criticized game mechanic and you still fail to explain why changing the said game mechanic would be sutch a bad idea.


Why would it be such a bad idea? I'll say it again. TENS of THOUSANDS of players have played this game using gates(without 'fancy' stuff) without issue. We are not talking hypothetical here, I actually USE my travel fit Machariel. I'm pushing Pirate Faction Battleships around the map while you fear to jump in using a frigate.

The above should illustrate that the problem here is you (and your lack of video game ability and will), not gates, not dudes with a dictor, not the game, but you. And no, the game should not be changed because people like you can't figure out simple and cheap ways to move ships through a gate without usually dying.
Don Pera Saissore
#90 - 2014-09-16 14:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Don Pera Saissore
Jenn aSide wrote:
Obviously not.

Ok then, im stupid and you are smart.

Could you maybe help me a bit, teach me something new, or give me an advice.

Here are a few losses i suffered on gates. Most are from fw lowsec, i dont lose ships in null any more.

#1 https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21898340
Jumped in a gatecamp, 2 guys camping, the bubble is up, there are abandoned drones scattered every where around the gate. They where placed there to decloack anyone who tries to make a run for it. I have to give credit to the guys who set this up, it took time to prepare this elaborate trap. I decided to burn for the gate, align-cloack-microwarp. The message pops up that im to close to a drone, im webd scramed and im dead.

#2 https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22878050
Jumped in a gate camp, 2 guys camping, sabre and a instalock scythe at distance from a gate. The bubble is up, i decided to burn away. Double click in space away from them-cloack-microwarp. I get a message that my cloak is interfering with my systems and i cant activate my cloak, f1 again and im locked. i didnt even make it out of the bubble.

#3 https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23099501
Jumped in a gatecamp, 3 guys camping at distance, i decided to burn for the gate. align-cloak-microwarp. insta lock from someone, pointed, a few seconds later scrammed and webd by the huricane, i almost made it to the gate but then the proteus came in range of his blasters.

#4 https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25169928
Jumped in a gatecamp, one guy camping. 3 seconds align was enough for him to lock me and fire one volley, didnt need more then that.

#5 https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25139329
Jumped in a gatecamp, 5 or 6 guys camping, insta locked, pointed, webd and killed.

I check my map for kills and poding i also check dotlan, that helps sometimes, if im lucky enough and the map updates with new information, dotlan is less helpful because of the massive delay but i can still get useful information if the gate is permacamped.

Im interested what would you do in such situations, in same ships, without backup.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#91 - 2014-09-16 14:42:56 UTC
Don Pera Saissore wrote:


Im interested what would you do in such situations, in same ships, without backup.


Use different ships and get some back up lol. EVE is a MMO, no one (especially not CCP) promises you solo success.

Beyond that, I don't really know what to tell you. I fly my machariel through low sec gates all the time and haven't been caught. I have died to gate camps in other ships (last I lost was a Gila on this toon), but usually because I wasn't paying attention. I do notice a general lack of warp core stabs and ECM Bursts and ships capable of deploying ECM drones etc.

That last killmail was of a ship that had no cloak on, what do you expect lol?

If you are dying a lot in situations where other people aren't dying a lot, that points to a personal failure of some sort. Picking the wrong ship, making the wrong tactical choice (like trying to re approach a gate when there is stuff nearby to prevent cloaking or stuff between yo and the gate), not knowing how to do certain things correctly (like the MWD+cloak trick in low sec, a nullified T3 or any ceptor can also do the trick in null sec even with bubbles present) etc etc.

I'd suggest a stint with the fine people of EVE University.
Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2014-09-16 14:55:09 UTC
Quote:
That is my opinion?

Thatis MY opinion????

No!! {kicks dude into pit of death} THIS.IS.EVE ONLINE. {flexes crossfit Abs}

If you can't hack it, it's not the game's fault.

Why would it be such a bad idea? I'll say it again. TENS of THOUSANDS of players have played this game using gates(without 'fancy' stuff) without issue. We are not talking hypothetical here, I actually USE my travel fit Machariel. I'm pushing Pirate Faction Battleships around the map while you fear to jump in using a frigate.

The above should illustrate that the problem here is you (and your lack of video game ability and will), not gates, not dudes with a dictor, not the game, but you. And no, the game should not be changed because people like you can't figure out simple and cheap ways to move ships through a gate without usually dying.


So lets say someone opens up a thread and makes the suggestion to implement a new deployable into the game that can be droped out of the cargo hold and then starts to automatically tractor in wreks and containers. This new deployable could be called the "mobile tractor unit".

And you jump in the thread and explain that the guy who made the suggestion is a idiot and he is to stupid to just throw out a cyno and bridge in a noctis or jump in a Roqual to loot the wreks. Or he could just loot them one by one. No need for change. TENS of THOUSENDS of players have looted wreks before. Why change anything ?

That is exaclty what you are doing here. You give no reason why the game needs to stay like it is and no reason why a change would make the game worse. That was the question. Your answer has nothing todo with the question. Thanks for your time but I am affraid I do not have a foto for you today.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-09-16 15:05:12 UTC
Captain Awkward wrote:
Quote:
That is my opinion?

Thatis MY opinion????

No!! {kicks dude into pit of death} THIS.IS.EVE ONLINE. {flexes crossfit Abs}

If you can't hack it, it's not the game's fault.

Why would it be such a bad idea? I'll say it again. TENS of THOUSANDS of players have played this game using gates(without 'fancy' stuff) without issue. We are not talking hypothetical here, I actually USE my travel fit Machariel. I'm pushing Pirate Faction Battleships around the map while you fear to jump in using a frigate.

The above should illustrate that the problem here is you (and your lack of video game ability and will), not gates, not dudes with a dictor, not the game, but you. And no, the game should not be changed because people like you can't figure out simple and cheap ways to move ships through a gate without usually dying.


So lets say someone opens up a thread and makes the suggestion to implement a new deployable into the game that can be droped out of the cargo hold and then starts to automatically tractor in wreks and containers. This new deployable could be called the "mobile tractor unit".

And you jump in the thread and explain that the guy who made the suggestion is a idiot and he is to stupid to just throw out a cyno and bridge in a noctis or jump in a Roqual to loot the wreks. Or he could just loot them one by one. No need for change. TENS of THOUSENDS of players have looted wreks before. Why change anything ?

That is exaclty what you are doing here. You give no reason why the game needs to stay like it is and no reason why a change would make the game worse. That was the question. Your answer has nothing todo with the question. Thanks for your time but I am affraid I do not have a foto for you today.


The MTU opened up a lot of PVP content.

You're trying to restrict PVP content.

Bad analogy is bad.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#94 - 2014-09-16 15:14:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Captain Awkward wrote:


So lets say someone opens up a thread and makes the suggestion to implement a new deployable into the game that can be droped out of the cargo hold and then starts to automatically tractor in wreks and containers. This new deployable could be called the "mobile tractor unit".

And you jump in the thread and explain that the guy who made the suggestion is a idiot and he is to stupid to just throw out a cyno and bridge in a noctis or jump in a Roqual to loot the wreks. Or he could just loot them one by one. No need for change. TENS of THOUSENDS of players have looted wreks before. Why change anything ?

That is exaclty what you are doing here. You give no reason why the game needs to stay like it is and no reason why a change would make the game worse. That was the question. Your answer has nothing todo with the question. Thanks for your time but I am affraid I do not have a foto for you today.


This is the power of denial (denial being a psychological defense mechanism that people use to avoid the pain of admitting personal failure).

First of all, I don't have to provide a reason for NOPT changing the game to cater to lazy and incompetent players, rather the lazy and incompetent players need to demonstrate why the thing that needs changing is a problem and not a side affect of being lazy and/or incompetent lol.

Secondly, this is a forum on the internet you can go back and see what I said about mobile tractor units. What you will see is that I did not oppose them at all.

Why? Why do I not oppose changes that are Good?

Because they are good changes. Changes that add to the game, that create new challenges and new opportunities don't get opposed by me or people like me. EVE, like a living organism, must change and grow, it if doesn't it dies.

But not all change is good, and some growths are called cancer. People like you like to mistake caution for stagnation, and that's not true. If i want things to not change ever, EVE would be a seriously bad choice in game t play because it has changed radically in the 7 years I've played it.

What you want isn't a good change, it's a crutch against your own inability to successfully play a video game in a way that 10s of thousands of better gamers have demonstrated is possible. I play the same game, i don't usually die after blind jumping through a gate regardless of what I'm flying (because I put some thought into what I'm flying and where, in the 1st place).

ANY change that is advocated for not because it's a good change but because it helps bad players (who will still find a way to fail under any circumstances) is by definition a bad change.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-09-16 15:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Captain Awkward wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Yet somehow none of those options fit the bill right. No, the game must HAND you entrance through a gate where you don't have eyes on the other side right?


I can even add some more that you forgott.

G- Multibox 255 Accounts so you can jump though with a armada of ships and overwellm the gatecampers

You wouldn't overwhelm them, because their scout in the system you are already in would see the threat coming. You know, that guy in local whose presence you completely ignored when you jumped the gate, and who should have been the first warning to you that the gate may not be safe to jump. See, you already ignored the first warning sign.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#96 - 2014-09-16 16:12:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Agamemna Sheridan wrote:
Don Pera Saissore wrote:
Maybe op would feel better if someone could rationally explain why is there a need for this kind of choke points.


I dont think its the chockepoint itself the OP is complaining about. Its the "blind" chokepoint that you have to jump into without knowing whats on the other side befor its to late kind of chokepoint that he is complainng about.

Edit: I would very mutch like to hear a rational explonation why this specific kind of chokepoint is a good thing :-)


Allrighty then, I'll make an attempt. You see, the OP is actually thinking that travel in Eve should be entirely unrestricted. That's simply not the case. Entities (corps, alliances) will lay claim to space, whether through SOV or through ownership of the moons and POCO's. These are investments worthy of protection, and as such these groups will attempt to safeguard what they own (and what they desire to own) against neutrals. To them, the OP is an invader with unknown intentions. Choke points allow people to actually claim a piece of space and create the predictable conditions under which other people can farm and carebear.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#97 - 2014-09-16 16:16:48 UTC
OP: FREE YOUR MIND.

In a yr and a half+ of playing Eve, I can tell you with all certainty that it was the most liberating feeling in the world when I stopped being afraid of dying. Don't fly anything you can't afford to lose/replace, and go about doing your own thing. Enjoy the rush of making or trying to make it through a danger zone, rather than being paralyzed by the fear of it. Accept that you WILL lose ships, sometimes often, sometimes rarely enough that you'd be surprised.

FREE
YOUR
MIND

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2014-09-16 16:26:28 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
OP: FREE YOUR MIND.

In a yr and a half+ of playing Eve, I can tell you with all certainty that it was the most liberating feeling in the world when I stopped being afraid of dying. Don't fly anything you can't afford to lose/replace, and go about doing your own thing. Enjoy the rush of making or trying to make it through a danger zone, rather than being paralyzed by the fear of it. Accept that you WILL lose ships, sometimes often, sometimes rarely enough that you'd be surprised.

FREE
YOUR
MIND


^ This. All of this.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2014-09-16 16:36:13 UTC
Clearly, Goons are at the root of this "Gates" problem you speak of. GrrGoons!
Don Pera Saissore
#100 - 2014-09-16 17:04:22 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Allrighty then, I'll make an attempt. You see, the OP is actually thinking that travel in Eve should be entirely unrestricted. That's simply not the case. Entities (corps, alliances) will lay claim to space, whether through SOV or through ownership of the moons and POCO's. These are investments worthy of protection, and as such these groups will attempt to safeguard what they own (and what they desire to won) against neutrals. To them, the OP is an invader with unknown intentions. Choke points allow people to actually claim a piece of space and create the predictable conditions under which other people can farm and carebear.

Ok, i understand that. Bubbling the gate is a way for them to control the traffic and guard the resources. I have no problem with that. My problem is that players are thrown in a blockade often without knowing what awaits them while the campers on the other hand can be lazy and just wait for a ship to appear and get blown up. IMO it disregards the concept of risk and reward. For an unprepared traveler there is no risk, there is no potential loss, death is guarantied and the campers are rewarded for simply showing up and pressing f1. Wouldn't it be better if there was a way to reliably determine the threat? Then it would be up to the pilot to make the decision weather to risk his assets.

Let me make it clear, i have no problem with losing my ship, i wouldn't be playing if i did. My issue is pointlessly dying on a gate because i cant see what is going on on the other side.

As it is often the case in GD, OP comes and demands that the game changes to accommodate his needs, i do not share his views, nor do i want gates to be removed.