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Crime & Punishment

 
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Friend is quitting Eve after he is caught out with Bonus room scam

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#81 - 2014-09-15 21:55:44 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:

No we must baby people through life because everything else can cause psychological stress.


Also, we should ban PvP in highsec, because any situation which can potentially cause loss brings out the badfeelz.

/s

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
CODE Agent AC
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#82 - 2014-09-15 22:29:35 UTC
+1 for everything! It has aged like a fine wine and cheese... and now just tastes better. Vintage tears are so great! NOMNOMNOM!

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Arkus Kane
UNN Heavy Industries
#83 - 2014-09-15 22:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkus Kane
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I touched on this in the Erotica 1 post. Surely Sohkar can THANK Erotica 1 in the future, when he goes to nagotiate his first RL mortgage, car loan or seeks investment advice. Won't he be much more likely to read the fine print and embrace 'buyer beware' and not be really scammed in the future, thanks to the lesson Erotica 1 taught him in game?

That is the beautiful transmogrification here many miss in their demonization of in-game 'griefers'. Gaming victimization tears are like a caterpillar, that will one day become a real-life 'disaster averted' success story butterfly.

Beautiful. ::sniff::

F



I think my issue with the Erotica 1 scam (it's unclear if the OP's story is the same in terms of level of victimisation, presumably not) is that it isn't game victimisation, though.

It's real life victimisation posing as game victimisation in order to morally legitimise itself, which is ethically very messed up.

If you're a pirate who demands singing ransoms, that usually lasts about 2 minutes, and if you're a decent pirate you then let your victim go. Even if you blow them up they lose ISK and that's it. It's, at worst, light-hearted short-lived mockery of your victim. That's fine.

If you're a standard scammer, you steal a large amount of ISK and perhaps even mock your victim in-game briefly, but that's it. That's fine.

If you're Erotica 1 you take everything your victim owns (including their character) and make all your profit...

...then you spend 2 solid, excruciating hours making fun of their real life speech impediment, making fun of their wife with your buddies, openly mocking them when they get upset and then threatening them with action from the developers when they start understandably insulting you for all the stuff you've subjected them to. Then you post it online to mock your mark even further.

Which, in my books, goes far FAR beyond any kind of legitimate scam this game should support, and well into sociopathic psychological abuse that doesn't even convey a lesson beyond "people are awful."

My 2 cents.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-09-16 05:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Arkus Kane wrote:
If you're a pirate who demands singing ransoms, that usually lasts about 2 minutes, and if you're a decent pirate you then let your victim go. Even if you blow them up they lose ISK and that's it. It's, at worst, light-hearted short-lived mockery of your victim. That's fine.

If you're a standard scammer, you steal a large amount of ISK and perhaps even mock your victim in-game briefly, but that's it. That's fine.

If you're Erotica 1 you take everything your victim owns (including their character) and make all your profit...

...then you spend 2 solid, excruciating hours making fun of their real life speech impediment, making fun of their wife with your buddies, openly mocking them when they get upset and then threatening them with action from the developers when they start understandably insulting you for all the stuff you've subjected them to. Then you post it online to mock your mark even further.



If the victim has already surrendered his assets, what's the ransom? Why does he try to recover his pixel assets with his RL dignity?

Why do you think someone can forcefully take your adult friend's dignity over teamspeak which he voluntarily joined and can voluntarily quit at any time? How much stuff was it?

Should your friend be treated as a minor and thus receive all the consideration and benefits of one?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Arkus Kane
UNN Heavy Industries
#85 - 2014-09-16 07:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkus Kane
Sibyyl wrote:
If the victim has already surrendered his assets, what's the ransom? Why does he try to recover his pixel assets with his RL dignity?

Why do you think someone can forcefully take your adult friend's dignity over teamspeak which he voluntarily joined and can voluntarily quit at any time? How much stuff was it?

Should your friend be treated as a minor and thus receive all the consideration and benefits of one?


The guy wasn't my friend and I'm not the OP ;)

I'm referring to one of the original victims of this scam which highlighted it's ethical murkiness.

Yes, the victim enters the scam of their own free will, due to foolishness and greed (as with all scams). However, there's a clear moral difference between spending 2 hours recording yourself and your buddies mentally dissecting someone's real life persona with the fake promise of giving them their stuff back and a quick, private "lol, you got scammed sucka" evemail message or something.

If someone were to scam me for my ISK and say: "Arkus Kane is a gullible buffoon", that's fair game.

If someone were to scam me for years of in-game effort and then delight in telling the whole world that and then start laughing at my RL income, looks, choice of romantic partner, intelligence of my kids or whatever...that's different Smile

If you listen to the old "bonus room" recordings, you can tell that the scammers don't really care about the ISK they're making. Their purpose is to methodically make their victim feel as upset and vulnerable as possible in real life using a combo of bully and classical "interrogation" techniques for a prolonged period, which I think is highly unpleasant.

Yeah, it's "optional". But you just took everything from someone, and then promised this desperate person that they'd get it back by being utterly humiliated, knowing that they're upset enough at present to go along with it. You also know you have zero intention of actually giving anything back, but you're going to do it for hours anyway. Pretty low just to get some "luls".

If intelligence agencies use very similar strategies to break people mentally IRL (humiliation, shaming, further coercion through greed etc., false promises, very long dialogues with multiple anonymous "interrogators") and such techniques are being used to upset people rather than for any kind of profit, I don't think you can argue the "it's totally harmless, stop treating everyone like babies lol" like you legitimately can with lots of in game scams.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-09-16 08:30:55 UTC
It is very easy to say, that sokhar could have left anytime, BUT:
The whole thing was a group effort and every time the victim starts to retreat, he will be baitet again with the promise, that he can still win. This promise is not solely uphold by the main-scammer, but by his buddies to.
The whole thing is deliberatly humiliating.
Any Singransom has better chances to get the ransom back. The e1 bonusroom was never about ransom. Only humiliation.
Therefor: ban-hammer

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-09-16 09:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Sibyyl wrote:
Why does he try to recover his pixel assets with his RL dignity?


Another of those lies of the humiliators.
EvE is not like any other MMO. Pixel Stuffs has values which is for eg calculated when Titans get clashed. But when it is convenient, to cover humiliation, it suddenly gets to "but it is only pixels".
Well Suiccied Ganker will never get attached to their cheap catalysts, but others put a lot of "virtu"-sweat into gaining "shiny ships" and stuff.

Even in WoW stuff has more virtual value to the player, but no Player in WoW can get really bankrupt.
In EvE you can get bankrupt. This fact makes you more aware to losses.

AND:
again, this is a planned game of humiliation, where hopes of the victims will be pushed up and crushed again and again.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-09-16 11:23:11 UTC
Arkus Kane wrote:


The guy wasn't my friend and I'm not the OP ;)


Oh dear.. do forgive me. I totally mistook you for OP.. the metal plate in the head, staunch expression. I do apologize.

Quote:
Yes, the victim enters the scam of their own free will, due to foolishness and greed (as with all scams). However, there's a clear moral difference between spending 2 hours recording yourself and your buddies mentally dissecting someone's real life persona with the fake promise of giving them their stuff back and a quick, private "lol, you got scammed sucka" evemail message or something.

If someone were to scam me for my ISK and say: "Arkus Kane is a gullible buffoon", that's fair game.

If someone were to scam me for years of in-game effort and then delight in telling the whole world that and then start laughing at my RL income, looks, choice of romantic partner, intelligence of my kids or whatever...that's different Smile


Maybe it's not clear which case of the Bonus Room you are referring to. Is it Sohkar's?

Let me point out two specific things you're saying here (see emphasis).

1. Listen to the recording again (almost universally is the case that people haven't listened to the whole thing). The scammers go to great pains to completely keep RL things out of the discussion. They're absolutely not interested in RL anything. The only person who brings RL into it is the so-called victim. I'll link this again, since a few people seem to think they are crusaders for victims who need their help.

2. I see no instance at all where this has happened, in relation to the topic.

Sohkar said:

Quote:
He [...] says that he should technically be banned for the things he said himself while raging [...] if the recording is considered legit evidence for TOS violations.

Sohkar rejects the claims that he was tortured. He got angry. He points out that after Ripard's blog post, he tried to reach out and talk to Ripard and sent him an eve-mail. Ripard has still not responded to him after several days.



Arkus Kane wrote:
If you listen to the old "bonus room" recordings, you can tell that the scammers don't really care about the ISK they're making. Their purpose is to methodically make their victim feel as upset and vulnerable as possible in real life using a combo of bully and classical "interrogation" techniques for a prolonged period, which I think is highly unpleasant.


Emphasis mine. Again with three key differences:
1. The victim is not of a diminished mental state that you can argue presents a situation that would cause any legal trouble in RL (ie: victim is not a minor)

2. The victim is not physically coerced or restricted. He is free to leave anytime

3. You can argue the victim is mentally bound there, but I reject this argument because #1 and because the total worth of all his stuff is ~$30. This is an insignificant amount of stuff from an RL point of view no matter how you look at it. If for some reason it is not insignificant, the victim handed it to the scammer themselves, by their own choice.


Quote:
But you just took everything from someone

...

If intelligence agencies use very similar strategies to break people mentally IRL (humiliation, shaming, further coercion through greed etc., false promises, very long dialogues with multiple anonymous "interrogators")



No, they took some pixel stuff from someone. The act of removing ones possessions is no different than being shot up in the last ship you can afford.


None of these strategies are strategies without physical coercion. There are no RL relationships, assets being threatened (ie: none whatsoever). The victim is not physically restrained. Your analogy is disingenuous.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-09-16 11:30:15 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
It is very easy to say, that sokhar could have left anytime, BUT:
The whole thing was a group effort and every time the victim starts to retreat, he will be baitet again with the promise, that he can still win. This promise is not solely uphold by the main-scammer, but by his buddies to.
The whole thing is deliberatly humiliating.
Any Singransom has better chances to get the ransom back. The e1 bonusroom was never about ransom. Only humiliation.
Therefor: ban-hammer


Read the article I've linked that includes Sohkar's opinion on the matter. He disagrees with you. The so-called victim's abhorrent racist behavior is something you seem to conveniently excuse. Maybe you're ok with slurs or have a bias yourself?

The reasons you state for the official action are incorrect. It tells me your limited understanding of the matter.



La Rynx wrote:

Another of those lies of the humiliators.
EvE is not like any other MMO. Pixel Stuffs has values which is for eg calculated when Titans get clashed. But when it is convenient, to cover humiliation, it suddenly gets to "but it is only pixels".
Well Suiccied Ganker will never get attached to their cheap catalysts, but others put a lot of "virtu"-sweat into gaining "shiny ships" and stuff.

Even in WoW stuff has more virtual value to the player, but no Player in WoW can get really bankrupt.
In EvE you can get bankrupt. This fact makes you more aware to losses.

AND:
again, this is a planned game of humiliation, where hopes of the victims will be pushed up and crushed again and again.



The fact that the person losing a game is also losing their emotional composure does not change the fact that "only pixels" are lost. You are showing your true colors with your rant that now extends to ganking? Your "virtu" sweat is your business. Stop flying ships you can't afford to lose, and stop handing over your EVE life savings to a scammer. Worse yet, stop expecting sympathy because you did either of these things and decided to blow your top over it.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#90 - 2014-09-16 12:02:13 UTC
And lo, the wizard spake, and the dead rose, and dogs and fedos cohabitated, and it was freaky.

tldr way to necro the thread, inb4l

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Sol epoch
HELVEGEN
#91 - 2014-09-16 13:13:56 UTC
Walk down any street in any city on the planet and you can spot victims waiting to happen at a glance.
We all see them and throw our arms in the air when they become a victim.

Some learn, Others just maybe like being victims.
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
#92 - 2014-09-16 16:20:47 UTC
Oh man. I just listened to the last part of that bonus room soundboard. XD

I am not surprised that some of them were Canadian. All this "please" and " thank you" stuff we do everyday IRL takes its toll and we tend to let off our steam on the internet. See a nasty/evil troll? Good chance he's Canadian!

It's like that episode on the Simpsons where Ned Flanders finally loses his cool after his politeness was taken advantage.

Summary: excessive "please" and "thank yous" comes with a grave, subsequent cost.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#93 - 2014-09-16 19:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
The problem is CCP appears to want its cake and to eat it too.

They market "HTFU", "Be the villian", 'Everything is fair game" and 'sandbox'....but then appear to be performing behind-doors star-chamber executions of players who cross the line into 'real world harassment' we hear...BUT they don't seem to actually directly accuse these people of real life harassment from what I have seen...

Look closely.

Notice how they insinuate 'real life harassment' with timely genericized forums posts, yet don't seemingly sack up and directly accuse the people being banned? Is this for fear of losing a slander/libel suit perhaps?

Now, if you are going to ban someone for 'real life harassment', then shouldn't you be making that clearly the case, informing the person and community of that, and let the chips fall where they may in any real life slander/libel counter-suits, confident you can defend your claims of 'real life harassment'?

No?

Well...then how about stopping this insinuating of real-world harassment that you can't (or won't) defend in RL!

My beef here is that CCP isn't living by its own HTFU creed IMHO. It appears they are meta-sliming players with 'real life harassment' insinuations, but then not sacking up to officially go on record with those accusations and back it up in RL.

This is for me very telling on the validity of said 'real life harassment'....

The solution?

How about just coming out of the road-to-nerfdom closet and saying you just don't LIKE these players, and you are banning them for that simple reason, then live with the player backlash consequences?

BE HONEST.

F

Would you like to know more?
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
#94 - 2014-09-16 19:28:26 UTC
Quote:
Notice how they insinuate 'real life harassment' with timely genericized forums posts, yet don't sack up and directly accuse the people being banned? Is this for fear of losing a slander/libel suit perhaps?

Now, if you are going to ban someone for 'real life harassment', then shouldn't you be making that clearly the case, informing the person and community of that, and let the chips fall where they may in any real life slander/libel counter-suits, confident you can defend your claims of 'real life harassment'?

No?

Well...then how about stopping this insinuating of real-world harassment that you can't (or won't) defend in RL!


To me, it looks like CCP is legally protecting itself without being as transparent as you would like to minimize further ramifications.

Some things just aren't worth the potential legal hastle to appease such an extreme minority of the playerbase.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-09-16 19:36:30 UTC
Charax Bouclier wrote:
To me, it looks like CCP is legally protecting itself without being as transparent as you would like to minimize further ramifications.

Some things just aren't worth the potential legal hastle to appease such an extreme minority of the playerbase.



Yep. It was a perception problem, not a moral problem that was being addressed.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Arkus Kane
UNN Heavy Industries
#96 - 2014-09-16 21:14:44 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Arkus Kane wrote:


The guy wasn't my friend and I'm not the OP ;)


Oh dear.. do forgive me. I totally mistook you for OP.. the metal plate in the head, staunch expression. I do apologize.


*Spits SimTobacco into bin* Lady, I got this here head plate in a bar fight on Inaro II with a Minmatar scumbag whose carefree neo-libertarian dreadlocks inflamed my suspicions that he was an escaped slave. I was correct. When you've had a rich, golden bottle of Amarrian ale smashed into the back of your noggin the staunch expression comes naturally.

And in any case, I think the pose showing off my classical Amarrian combination of good looks and rabid religious fanaticism is far more alluring than that of the OP, who frankly looks like he's had far too much Mindflood and not read the Pax Amarria for a few years.


Anyway, I'm way too tired and have posted too much on this to really put much more tonight.

But I did note that you said that the Erotica 1 scammer and his buds didn't try to drag RL into things...this isn't true. The first thing they do on the recording, before the guy even says anything much at all, is get him to read huge lumps of mindless text out.

They then pick out all the words he struggles to pronounce due to a speech impediment and tell him to make a list at the end and repeat them all over and over again. That doesn't happen because he gets upset before then - but still, it was entirely their intention to make fun of his personal attributes outside of the game.
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#97 - 2014-09-16 22:10:26 UTC
Arkus Kane wrote:
But I did note that you said that the Erotica 1 scammer and his buds didn't try to drag RL into things...this isn't true. The first thing they do on the recording, before the guy even says anything much at all, is get him to read huge lumps of mindless text out.

They then pick out all the words he struggles to pronounce due to a speech impediment and tell him to make a list at the end and repeat them all over and over again. That doesn't happen because he gets upset before then - but still, it was entirely their intention to make fun of his personal attributes outside of the game.


The only way dragging someone into voice comms as part of a scam is legit is if you are roleplaying and don't break character the entire time, IMO
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#98 - 2014-09-17 00:04:36 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-09-17 01:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
Actions committed via game mechanics are largely different than actions committed via social conduct with a player.

The standards in regards to gameplay are:
- No exploitation of game mechanics
- No excessive harassment of individual players
- No intentionally creating excess server load or server problems

The standards in regards to social conduct are:
- No use of hate speech
- No intentionally attempting to cause grief to a player
- No real-life harassment

While I may be missing a point or two, we can see exactly why this makes things like "the bonus room" fall into question, where as ganking, scamming, wardeccing, and general PvP via game mechanics does not.

I've defended the bonus room before on account of the severity of the judgments laid against the members, and the use of words like "torture" and "sociopath" which are far beyond the scope of what happened.

I do however take exception to those who fail to see the difference between actions via game mechanics and actions via questionable social conduct. The bonus room falls into the latter category, as do certain instances of scamming and AWOXing. If CCP's position is as stated, I would be very worried if I were someone who likes to message scam/AWOX victims after for tear collection. Your time very well may come to an end. It is however a stretch to claim this would ever apply to perceived griefing via gameplay.

TLDR: If you are using gameplay mechanics to achieve your fun, have at it hoss. If you are using communications with players to achieve your fun, reference Wheaton's Law.

Hey guys.
Experiment 32423
Doomheim
#100 - 2014-09-17 09:24:57 UTC
It was ultimately his friend's choice to do what he did, and should be aware of the consequences that can occur, just like in reality.

While yes, someone was very naughty for taking advantage of his inexperience and innocence that were fueled by greed, it becomes a defining moment in many players' EVE careers. You can choose to embrace the experience and accept it, or blame the game and its community and quit.

Filing a ticket is a ridiculous approach for the above reasons, if assets were reimbursed this way, then any player who loses a ship in non-consensual PvP would deserve a reimbursement too. No, your friend has to come to terms with reality that he allowed this to happen, and understand that anything that was lost can be recovered. The only truly valuable asset in EVE is trust, of which none was gained or lost.