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Battlecruisers and Battleships need better brakes
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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#21 - 2014-09-15 06:46:51 UTC
Laminar Septimar wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
One could assume that a bigger boat would have bigger engines and better technology onboard so that slowing down wouldn't be such a hassle as it is now.

The acceleration into the warp 'tunnel' of battlecruisers and battleships seems okay so far but slowing those down out of warp is out of line.

So I suggest we ask some fine Caldari engineers to develop a better braking system for larger ships to cut down the deccelaration process down to half.


The Warpingsystem got overhauled a few patches ago and it doesn't need yet another overhaul. Big ships accelerate/decelerate slower than smaller ships thus making it easier to catch up and travel faster in smaller ships. Furthermore it is allready possible to decrease the acceleration/deceleration of a starship by using astronautic rigs.

Also why should it be possible to to decelerate faster for a starship ? In a simplified environment, a ship which is accelerated by 1 needs the the same time to accelerate from from its current speed to 10 as it will take the ship to decelerate from 10 to current speed(deceleration is the same as negative acceleration).

Warp speed accelerates and decelerates as a factor of your warp-speed now, as opposed to a static acceleration/deceleration curve that was uniform for all ships. Make your BC or BS faster in warp, make it faster to get up to max speed and hold max speed longer, and still take less time decelerating.

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Johann Rascali
The Milkmen
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2014-09-15 07:06:41 UTC
Actually, warp deceleration has a "floor" to it and is purposefully slower than entering warp as a result of classes destroyer and below (namely interceptors and interdictors) having such a short deceleration period that they'd be moving extremely fast at the end of it and slide the last few hundred kilometers in less than a second (i.e. one server tick) thus "magically appearing" out of nowhere wherever they warped.

Blanking signatures doesn't seem to work, so this is here.
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-09-15 07:19:06 UTC
I'm pretty sure that CCP Galileo, CCP Descartes, and CCP Newton would agree with the current mechanics.
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-09-15 17:43:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolf Incaelum
elitatwo wrote:
The acceleration into the WARP 'tunnel' of battlecruisers and battleships seems okay so far but slowing those down out of WARP is out of line.


A quote from the original post for all of the people who are too lazy to ready things in their entirety. As you can see, "warp" most certainly WAS mentioned. Twice, to be exact. I even capitalized, italicized, underlined and bolded them for those of you who might just have really REALLY bad (or perhaps just selective) eye sight.

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-09-15 17:52:25 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
They do not slow you down faster out of warp.

Actually, they do.
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-09-15 20:18:13 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Use warp speed rigs/implants/mods.



They do not slow you down faster out of warp. One of the reasons battleships appear travelling so slow these day is that the second they slow down from the 2AU/s warp speed to zero speed is that is take the same time to slow that ship down as it takes to cross a system from gate to gate to slow it down again.

Visually you 'appear' on grid of your destination but you are unable to do anything at this point until your ship is slowed down enough.

Even in a Leopard it seems it takes longer to slow down than to warp from gate to gate.


I think I get what you're saying. If I'm understanding correctly, you aren't trying to make your ship warp from point A to point B in less time, and you aren't trying to increase deceleration. What you're talking about is the issues of visually appearing on grid, but not being out of warp. That delay of a few seconds where you have landed on grid, but can't move your ship or lock anything because you are still "technically" in warp until your speedometer no longer says "warping". Is that what you're talking about?

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#27 - 2014-09-15 20:28:42 UTC
Wolf Incaelum wrote:
-snip-
I think I get what you're saying. If I'm understanding correctly, you aren't trying to make your ship warp from point A to point B in less time, and you aren't trying to increase deceleration. What you're talking about is the issues of visually appearing on grid, but not being out of warp. That delay of a few seconds where you have landed on grid, but can't move your ship or lock anything because you are still "technically" in warp until your speedometer no longer says "warping". Is that what you're talking about?


Yes, exactly that is what I am saying. Thank you!

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Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-09-16 18:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kell Braugh
If we are to assume that the warp drives in Eve follow at least the style of an Alcubierre drive (where space itself is being constantly warped around the ship) one could also assume that the ship itself is moving at a pretty good clip relative to its local frame of reference. Suspending the actual disbelief of the physical creation of such a warp bubble (this is a game after all), I believe the appearance of the ship itself is not due to visual distance (in the game mechanics, this is 'the grid') but the breakdown of the quantized field (the warp bubble if you will). The ship's frame of reference then would become the local space and as such, still be maintaining quite a bit of inertia.

In fact, other than being horrible gameplay, we should really be starting to slow down both the field (and the ship inside the field) much much sooner to deal with the inertia of millions of tons of mass moving at effectively-superluminal speed.

At least in theory, ships coming out of warp should also have accumulated enough energetic particles to essential destroy anything present at its destination, a game mechanic I think we can all agree would be a bit OP. Maybe the devs are accounting for this by requiring additional time to slow the ship down and dissipate said particles.

Or, you know, it's a game, and the game engine just works like that. It uses a logarithmic function to calculate accelerations. That last 5km takes more time than the previous 200km to slow down. Surely this is more reasonable than stopping on a dime and killing everything in sight.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-09-16 18:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
elitatwo wrote:
Wolf Incaelum wrote:
-snip-
I think I get what you're saying. If I'm understanding correctly, you aren't trying to make your ship warp from point A to point B in less time, and you aren't trying to increase deceleration. What you're talking about is the issues of visually appearing on grid, but not being out of warp. That delay of a few seconds where you have landed on grid, but can't move your ship or lock anything because you are still "technically" in warp until your speedometer no longer says "warping". Is that what you're talking about?


Yes, exactly that is what I am saying. Thank you!



This is reasonable, especially considering the sensor strengths involved.

Edit: I mean scan res.
Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#30 - 2014-09-16 21:00:04 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Use warp speed rigs/implants/mods.



They do not slow you down faster out of warp. One of the reasons battleships appear travelling so slow these day is that the second they slow down from the 2AU/s warp speed to zero speed is that is take the same time to slow that ship down as it takes to cross a system from gate to gate to slow it down again.

Visually you 'appear' on grid of your destination but you are unable to do anything at this point until your ship is slowed down enough.

Even in a Leopard it seems it takes longer to slow down than to warp from gate to gate.


THATS COZ YOU ARE IN A LEOPARD. you know, 20 flippin AU a SECOND. you expect the damn thing to stop on a dime?
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#31 - 2014-09-16 21:07:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
The only thing I would agree on, about BS and BC warp deceleration, is that the time you spend on grid, but unable to leave the warp yet, should be reduced drastically. Just change the deceleration process so that it takes the same amount of time... but off grid!

In my opinion, a ship appearing on grid should be like in every movie : *Woosh* And then a second later its firing full thrust and firing all weapons.

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Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#32 - 2014-09-16 21:14:48 UTC
Altrue wrote:
The only thing I would agree on, about BS and BC warp deceleration, is that the time you spend on grid, but unable to leave the warp yet, should be reduced drastically. Just change the deceleration process so that it takes the same amount of time... but off grid!

In my opinion, a ship appearing on grid should be like in every movie : *Woosh* And then a second later its firing full thrust and firing all weapons.


this this this.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#33 - 2014-09-16 21:23:38 UTC
Altrue wrote:
The only thing I would agree on, about BS and BC warp deceleration, is that the time you spend on grid, but unable to leave the warp yet, should be reduced drastically. Just change the deceleration process so that it takes the same amount of time... but off grid!

In my opinion, a ship appearing on grid should be like in every movie : *Woosh* And then a second later its firing full thrust and firing all weapons.


That was the thing that is bugging me the most.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-09-16 21:37:35 UTC
To be fair, the OP wasnt the clearest on this. Worth an update imo.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#35 - 2014-09-16 21:54:15 UTC
I am sorry, dear!

I had no idea how describe that when I wrote it.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2014-09-16 21:57:14 UTC
No apologies required! I just suggested it so people stop with 'lol rig for it' Smile
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-09-17 20:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolf Incaelum
Kell Braugh wrote:
If we are to assume that the warp drives in Eve follow at least the style of an Alcubierre drive (where space itself is being constantly warped around the ship) one could also assume that the ship itself is moving at a pretty good clip relative to its local frame of reference. Suspending the actual disbelief of the physical creation of such a warp bubble (this is a game after all), I believe the appearance of the ship itself is not due to visual distance (in the game mechanics, this is 'the grid') but the breakdown of the quantized field (the warp bubble if you will). The ship's frame of reference then would become the local space and as such, still be maintaining quite a bit of inertia.

In fact, other than being horrible gameplay, we should really be starting to slow down both the field (and the ship inside the field) much much sooner to deal with the inertia of millions of tons of mass moving at effectively-superluminal speed.

At least in theory, ships coming out of warp should also have accumulated enough energetic particles to essential destroy anything present at its destination, a game mechanic I think we can all agree would be a bit OP. Maybe the devs are accounting for this by requiring additional time to slow the ship down and dissipate said particles.

Or, you know, it's a game, and the game engine just works like that. It uses a logarithmic function to calculate accelerations. That last 5km takes more time than the previous 200km to slow down. Surely this is more reasonable than stopping on a dime and killing everything in sight.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that basically what you are saying is that the momentum of the ship being pushed and pulled by space-time is resisting the sudden acceleration of dropping out of warp, in accordance with Newton's 1st Law.

The Alcubierre drive doesn't accelerate the mass within the warp field, it accelerates space-time. It just doesn't accelerate ALL of space time. Like ocean waves, the warp field is a local event. A ship in the north Atlantic won't be moved by a wave in the south Atlantic. The space-time "wave" is localized and contained, and can expand and contract as quickly as it likes (or as quickly as it is made to do so). It isn't the ship that's moving, therefore it doesn't need to worry about momentum or accumulating energy. It will simply drop out of warp and again be motionless in a different space, unless acted upon by some outside source such as the ship's impulse drives. This is what elitatwo is asking for. The ability to resume normal actions upon dissipation of the warp field. The issue isn't appearing on grid before the warp field dissipates. Warping isn't a quantum mechanic like jump gates, cynos and WHs, where you disappear from one point of space and reappear in another point of space lightyears away. The space-time "wave" needs time to flatten out and return to normal, for which the game already has an animation. There is an obviously noticeable "deceleration" when exiting warp. The issue is that a ship's warp field will dissipate and the ship be motionless, but still "technically" be in warp according to the games mechanics. The speedometer will continue to say "warping" for a few moments after the warp field should have dissipated and allowed space to fully return to normal. This can cause problems because it means that you are sitting there unable to move and/or defend yourself for a few seconds. Not a horribly long time, but as we all know, every second counts if you're about be jumped by a fleet of gankers (or what ever your respective combat scenario may be).

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
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