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Dodging Wardecs

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#661 - 2014-09-14 22:10:52 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

If the rules do not apply equally, they don't really apply at all.


I have often found myself aligned in viewpoint with you Kaarous, however I completely disagree here. Rules are applied as CCP see fit - I would strongly recommend that pilots do not attempt to evade Concord's retribution.


Oh, I agree. I think you misunderstood.

What I was saying is that, since CCP is so very, very inconsistent in regards to their policing of "exploits" across the breadth of the game, that I could not in honesty blame anyone who discovered this trick of their own accord and used it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#662 - 2014-09-14 22:18:41 UTC
Reldor Silverheart wrote:
*Snip* Removed off-topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

Folding a corp upon getting wardecced and then recreating it is utter BS, there should be a cost or penalty. Or even be blocked from closing it for the duration of the war.



Doesn't this leave the door open for perpetual rotating decs forcing a corp to stay open indefinitely with no way out?

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#663 - 2014-09-14 22:19:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Milan Nantucket wrote:
first I am not your buddy.
You are my new favourite lunatic. Well done. The next part is hilarious.

Milan Nantucket wrote:
Lets see what the none Eve players think:
“In many ways it’s a quintessential sci-fi experience, where thousands of people from all around the globe are waging a huge conflict that will have real repercussions on the politics, economy and social structures of a virtual universe,” said Coker.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/01/29/massive-eve-online-battle-could-cost-500000-in-real-money/
Your taking a PR statement (from "CCP spokesman Ned Coker") and presenting it as what? A view from outside of EVE?

Milan Nantucket wrote:
Can't wage a huge conflict expecting not to be shot at. You are consenting to PvP by just playing. They can only avoid one type of PvP. Dropping corp and recreating a new corp with the same name has been around forever.
Of course you can. I wage conflict from the safety of a station on many occasions. Sometimes I don't even log in to do it. EVE is a diverse game, and you treat it as if shooting people is the only form of PvP. You're wrong.

[quote=Milan Nantucket]Carebear whining been around just as long. Now you see why it is cheaper to just suicide gank the corp. If you want a change increase the amount of isk involved in creating a corp. Make it equal to what a war dec costs like it used to.
As has ganker whining, such as this thread. Idiots with selfish ideas on both sides should be equally ignored. An idea isn't automatically good just because it involves shooting people.


You truly are one of the clueless.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#664 - 2014-09-14 22:27:07 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Reldor Silverheart wrote:
*Snip* Removed off-topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

Folding a corp upon getting wardecced and then recreating it is utter BS, there should be a cost or penalty. Or even be blocked from closing it for the duration of the war.



Doesn't this leave the door open for perpetual rotating decs forcing a corp to stay open indefinitely with no way out?


Hence my idea of killrights.

No one should be *forced* to stay in a corp. But there should be consequences for leaving during a dec.

That, and forming a corp should be a 50mil fee, since it has not been adjusted since inception and wardecs have.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#665 - 2014-09-14 22:41:28 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Reldor Silverheart wrote:
*Snip* Removed off-topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

Folding a corp upon getting wardecced and then recreating it is utter BS, there should be a cost or penalty. Or even be blocked from closing it for the duration of the war.



Doesn't this leave the door open for perpetual rotating decs forcing a corp to stay open indefinitely with no way out?


Hence my idea of killrights.

No one should be *forced* to stay in a corp. But there should be consequences for leaving during a dec.

That, and forming a corp should be a 50mil fee, since it has not been adjusted since inception and wardecs have.



The consequence is they had to leave the corp. Doesn't do much for your employment record.

50 mil to start a corp. which will only effect some war-dec dodgers, as it'll have no effect on those with multiple accounts or those that play something else. Seems pointless to me, you can't stop people dodging war-decs I don't even know why you bother trying.

CCP made it easier to dodge war-decs so I doubt they'll do a 'U' turn, especially as it won't achieve the result you want. Unless the result you want is to make life more difficult for people that they just give up on EVE.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#666 - 2014-09-14 22:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Reldor Silverheart wrote:
*Snip* Removed off-topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

Folding a corp upon getting wardecced and then recreating it is utter BS, there should be a cost or penalty. Or even be blocked from closing it for the duration of the war.



Doesn't this leave the door open for perpetual rotating decs forcing a corp to stay open indefinitely with no way out?


Hence my idea of killrights.

No one should be *forced* to stay in a corp. But there should be consequences for leaving during a dec.

That, and forming a corp should be a 50mil fee, since it has not been adjusted since inception and wardecs have.


Assuming (yes, that word) that killrights would be a one-shot thing and not a situation where there are unlimited rights on the player for as long as the dec runs...essentially perma-flagging for the dec duration...then this is a pretty low-cost penalty and shouldn't (even though it would) create too many tears. After all, how expensive or time consuming would it be to hop into a 0/cheap-implant clone and fly some rookie ship into bad places?

A 50 million startup fee is a different subject. True, it's a minuscule number to most of the people in this conversation; but it's not a small number to people just starting out. Of course that begs the question of whether or not someone who can't afford 50 mil should even be starting a corp but that's another subject. Also...sandbox.

It's hard for me to disagree initially with making the cost of fleeing from a dec equal to the cost of the dec itself...as it seems logical on its face...but I suppose that new content would then exist in the form of deep pockets constantly deccing someone just to bleed their ISK stash for grins. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Just food for thought.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#667 - 2014-09-14 23:23:52 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:

The consequence is they had to leave the corp. Doesn't do much for your employment record.


Lol.

A real consequence would exist if there was a cooldown to rejoin a player corp, and if NPC corp taxes had an effect on anything besides bare bones mission payouts.


Quote:

CCP made it easier to dodge war-decs so I doubt they'll do a 'U' turn, especially as it won't achieve the result you want. Unless the result you want is to make life more difficult for people that they just give up on EVE.


This existing is an unintended mechanic. The existence of the surrender mechanic makes it very clear that it is the intended way to dissolve a wardec, not play games with corp registration.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#668 - 2014-09-14 23:33:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


This existing is an unintended mechanic. The existence of the surrender mechanic makes it very clear that it is the intended way to dissolve a wardec, not play games with corp registration.



KA, You know you're right, I know you're right, most people know you're right. Unfortunately there are those that a good honest balancing, just, maybe, might, make their game ever so slightly, barely, imperceptibly, damaged.

Your head is in need of a crash helmet for all the brickwalls you seem to be bashing it against......
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#669 - 2014-09-14 23:36:30 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


This existing is an unintended mechanic. The existence of the surrender mechanic makes it very clear that it is the intended way to dissolve a wardec, not play games with corp registration.



KA, You know you're right, I know you're right, most people know you're right. Unfortunately there are those that a good honest balancing, just, maybe, might, make their game ever so slightly, barely, imperceptibly, damaged.

Your head is in need of a crash helmet for all the brickwalls you seem to be bashing it against......



Oh, I know that they won't budge. They will do anything, say anything to hold onto their golden goose.

Just like people who owned tracking Titans.

And just like tracking Titans, their tears when the rug is pulled out from under them will be delicious beyond compare.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#670 - 2014-09-14 23:39:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:

The consequence is they had to leave the corp. Doesn't do much for your employment record.


Lol.

A real consequence would exist if there was a cooldown to rejoin a player corp, and if NPC corp taxes had an effect on anything besides bare bones mission payouts.





A real consequence that would have no real bearing on a lot of players that side step war-decs as they don't even leave the corp. Doesn't seem like much of a consequence to me where those players are concerned.

Seems that you're trying to make it difficult, for players that don't want to get involved in war-decs, I really don't see the point as all what will happen is they'll either go back to an npc corp. for a short time, stay in their corp. and play another character or play something else for the duration (might lead to them leaving altogether).

You're not going to get players that don't want to fight to fight, so all you're trying to do is make life more awkward and have more potential easy targets. You won't get more targets, they'll still avoid you and the more you make life difficult the more people won't put up with it.

If they wanted to fight in war-decs they wouldn't be trying to avoid them.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#671 - 2014-09-14 23:43:55 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:

The consequence is they had to leave the corp. Doesn't do much for your employment record.


Lol.

A real consequence would exist if there was a cooldown to rejoin a player corp, and if NPC corp taxes had an effect on anything besides bare bones mission payouts.





A real consequence that would have no real bearing on a lot of players that side step war-decs as they don't even leave the corp. Doesn't seem like much of a consequence to me where those players are concerned.

Seems that you're trying to make it difficult, for players that don't want to get involved in war-decs, I really don't see the point as all what will happen is they'll either go back to an npc corp. for a short time, stay in their corp. and play another character or play something else for the duration (might lead to them leaving altogether).

You're not going to get players that don't want to fight to fight, so all you're trying to do is make life more awkward and have more potential easy targets. You won't get more targets, they'll still avoid you and the more you make life difficult the more people won't put up with it.

If they wanted to fight in war-decs they wouldn't be trying to avoid them.


Exactly - there literally is no way to force people to fight wars. There is no way to stop them from docking up and playing on alts. This just makes all the suggestions here useless. Be more careful about who you wardecc, and you won't be saddled with asking CCP to fulfill the impossible task of forcing people to fight wars.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#672 - 2014-09-14 23:44:53 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:

If they wanted to fight in war-decs they wouldn't be trying to avoid them.


Then they don't get to be in player corps, and they should be eating fairly significant NPC corp taxes and other restrictions.

Why should they get to have their cake and eat it too?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#673 - 2014-09-14 23:56:45 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:

The consequence is they had to leave the corp. Doesn't do much for your employment record.


Lol.

A real consequence would exist if there was a cooldown to rejoin a player corp, and if NPC corp taxes had an effect on anything besides bare bones mission payouts.





A real consequence that would have no real bearing on a lot of players that side step war-decs as they don't even leave the corp. Doesn't seem like much of a consequence to me where those players are concerned.

Seems that you're trying to make it difficult, for players that don't want to get involved in war-decs, I really don't see the point as all what will happen is they'll either go back to an npc corp. for a short time, stay in their corp. and play another character or play something else for the duration (might lead to them leaving altogether).

You're not going to get players that don't want to fight to fight, so all you're trying to do is make life more awkward and have more potential easy targets. You won't get more targets, they'll still avoid you and the more you make life difficult the more people won't put up with it.

If they wanted to fight in war-decs they wouldn't be trying to avoid them.


Exactly - there literally is no way to force people to fight wars. There is no way to stop them from docking up and playing on alts. This just makes all the suggestions here useless. Be more careful about who you wardecc, and you won't be saddled with asking CCP to fulfill the impossible task of forcing people to fight wars.


It's is not about forcing people to fight. What part of that are you not understanding.

Lets say you pay a Merc Corp 500mil to WD a competitor. He is a bit big for you to take on, and he is muscling into your space. That competitor drops Corp. Reforms Corp with same name and carries on business as usual 5 minutes later.

Merc has done his job. you're 500mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

If you cannot see the problem with that......................
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#674 - 2014-09-14 23:59:46 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:


It's is not about forcing people to fight. What part of that are you not understanding.

Lets say you pay a Merc Corp 500mil to WD a competitor. He is a bit big for you to take on, and he is muscling into your space. That competitor drops Corp. Reforms Corp with same name and carries on business as usual 5 minutes later.

Merc has done his job. you're 500mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

If you cannot see the problem with that......................



Ok great...now lets say you make it a real pain to drop corp....so competitor just docks up, and undocks with his alt in NPC corp, or alt in a diff corp, and carries on. Merc has done his job, you're 500 mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

See the issue?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#675 - 2014-09-15 00:00:27 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:

If you cannot see the problem with that......................



Of course they don't see a problem with that.

Remember, their goal is Trammel.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#676 - 2014-09-15 00:01:32 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:


It's is not about forcing people to fight. What part of that are you not understanding.

Lets say you pay a Merc Corp 500mil to WD a competitor. He is a bit big for you to take on, and he is muscling into your space. That competitor drops Corp. Reforms Corp with same name and carries on business as usual 5 minutes later.

Merc has done his job. you're 500mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

If you cannot see the problem with that......................



Ok great...now lets say you make it a real pain to drop corp....so competitor just docks up, and undocks with his alt in NPC corp, or alt in a diff corp, and carries on. Merc has done his job, you're 500 mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

See the issue?


He is not playing his char that is invading my space. I get what I wanted.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#677 - 2014-09-15 00:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Aftermath
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:

If they wanted to fight in war-decs they wouldn't be trying to avoid them.


Then they don't get to be in player corps, and they should be eating fairly significant NPC corp taxes and other restrictions.

Why should they get to have their cake and eat it too?


Every time CCP has tried to encourage people to change the way they play through game mechanics, like

NPC corp taxes rising (demanded by players in player corps iirc) to try and make player corps. more attractive, instead resulted in more single character corps. If they wanted to be in a multi-player corp. they would be.

Making mission givers give missions further away and more spread out to try and spread players out more, resulted in a higher concentration of mission runners because they were avoiding mission givers near low-sec. There's no reason to mission in low-sec if you live in high-sec as the risks far out way the reward. Although this seems to have been reversed at some point.

That's just 2 examples of failed game mechanics. The reality is with a game, you can't force people to do what they don't want to do, if you keep forcing all what happens is they end up leaving eventually. Nothing to stop you trying to make an area more attractive, but the danger is making an area less attractive than it was is likely to result in losing players.


My characters are in solo corps. high taxes were a factor, that and the fact there's no benefit being in an npc corp. other than avoiding war-decs. But then I never agreed with the raising of taxes in npc corps in the first place.

Plus why should npc corps pay 11% taxes, just for avoiding war-decs. Of course I've already covered the reason why it's 11%, but as I said it failed to do what they intended and it was always doomed to failure.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#678 - 2014-09-15 00:52:27 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:


It's is not about forcing people to fight. What part of that are you not understanding.

Lets say you pay a Merc Corp 500mil to WD a competitor. He is a bit big for you to take on, and he is muscling into your space. That competitor drops Corp. Reforms Corp with same name and carries on business as usual 5 minutes later.

Merc has done his job. you're 500mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

If you cannot see the problem with that......................



Ok great...now lets say you make it a real pain to drop corp....so competitor just docks up, and undocks with his alt in NPC corp, or alt in a diff corp, and carries on. Merc has done his job, you're 500 mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

See the issue?


He is not playing his char that is invading my space. I get what I wanted.


That's not an accomplishment. Forcing a guy into NPC corp may mean he has to pay more taxes, but that doesn't benefit you. Wardeccs are not meant to be a tool to let you embargo single players for a week or force the into NPC corps, they are meant to be a tool for you to challenge medium-large corps who don't want to disband, and allow you to force them to defend themselves.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#679 - 2014-09-15 00:52:48 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:

If they wanted to fight in war-decs they wouldn't be trying to avoid them.


Then they don't get to be in player corps, and they should be eating fairly significant NPC corp taxes and other restrictions.

Why should they get to have their cake and eat it too?


Waffle Waffle Waffle.


Because it Validates the WD. It gives it meaning.

It also gives players choice. Drop Corp and eat NPC taxes, to be able to continue with that char / Or play an Alt / go outside, or fight and defend. All of which the WD was i believe meant to achieve.

ATM the BiS, and only choice is Drop and reform. Which totally, and utterly trivialises WD's
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#680 - 2014-09-15 00:59:23 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:


It's is not about forcing people to fight. What part of that are you not understanding.

Lets say you pay a Merc Corp 500mil to WD a competitor. He is a bit big for you to take on, and he is muscling into your space. That competitor drops Corp. Reforms Corp with same name and carries on business as usual 5 minutes later.

Merc has done his job. you're 500mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

If you cannot see the problem with that......................



Ok great...now lets say you make it a real pain to drop corp....so competitor just docks up, and undocks with his alt in NPC corp, or alt in a diff corp, and carries on. Merc has done his job, you're 500 mil short, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

See the issue?


He is not playing his char that is invading my space. I get what I wanted.


That's not an accomplishment. Forcing a guy into NPC corp may mean he has to pay more taxes, but that doesn't benefit you. Wardeccs are not meant to be a tool to let you embargo single players for a week or force the into NPC corps, they are meant to be a tool for you to challenge medium-large corps who don't want to disband, and allow you to force them to defend themselves.


Oh dear. Really? please say you were only joking when you typed that.

Really you should just Edit it to a blank post.