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Balancing ships and ammo !

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-09-14 03:27:25 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


A. This is not true - just because a ship is too easy to gank in highsec does not mean it would cease to exist in the game. It does mean that it would be used less than otherwise.

B. Battleships are the ugly duckling of Eve. They are used by mission runners who generally are not worried about getting ganked since it is a pain to scan them down and gank them. They are not seen as much in low/null because of their relatively high cost, and the easy of ganking them with frigs, cruisers, bombers, etc.. etc...


Oh Beers, ever the cynic.

Battleships are great for PVP. The problem is, newbs are jumping in them without understanding a variety of things about PVP that would help them fit and survive better, and even get kills. This is why only experienced players do well with them, and incredibly well. I, myself, have a preference for the Hyperion, but I lack the experience and prowess to do as well as the elite few like the gentleman linked above. Doesn't mean it needs to be better balanced, it means I need to learn more about how to fight with the Hyperion.

Anything, anything at all, can be ganked pretty easily, if you know what you're doing. Likewise, anything is capable of surviving a gank attempt if you know what you're doing. Hence, the balance is there. You just have to know what you're doing.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-09-14 03:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Veers Belvar wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


It's not just what I think, and it's not about impressing anyone. You have failed to define 'well tanked' in order to establish a premise for your argument. As such, I have no reason to believe that you are capable of understanding what 'well tanked' means.

On the other hand, you can be as 'well tanked' as you like, if you have a hundred Velators with civ electron blasters on 'em, you're bound to feel some hurt.

Balancing in this game is as such that smaller ships can be capable of taking on the larger ones, and visa-versa. This is why we tell newbs that bigger =/= better, because it's not. I killed a Raven in a Wolf the other day. You out to nerf the Wolf too because a 40mil fit killed a 170mil one? You probably are because you don't understand how balancing works, but I'll give you a hint - it has zero to do with the value of the ganker ship vs the value of the target.



My battleship had 127k ehp,


I stopped there.

I can fit a Gnosis with 150.

I rest my case.

Also, Raven's don't use guns. He was 'tracking' me just fine with his drones and missiles, and even got me into less than half armour. You really need to learn more about the game before deciding whether it's balanced or not.

Lol at newbs spending five minutes shooting at red crosses who suddenly think they're all that and know everything. I was one once, so I know the feeling. You're wrong though.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Gaming God
Gaming God Corporation
#43 - 2014-09-14 03:30:50 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gaming God wrote:


Any way al this **** dossend mather . The point is that suecide ganking needs a balance and a nerf :)


Good luck trying to get people to believe that with no argument behind it whatsoever.


argument :

After jumping an gate you warp to the next gate but before that happens you get ganked by 22 destroyers the insta kill your 1.3 bil golem you get no time to enable your mods or do anyting in your defence . Concord is miles away and you die .

Looks to me this fight is not balanced ad all that was the argument :)
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-09-14 03:31:52 UTC
Gaming God wrote:
Any way al this **** dossend mather . The point is that suecide ganking needs a balance and a nerf :)

What evidence have you supplied that supports this claim?

Veers Belvar wrote:
Battleships are the ugly duckling of Eve. They are used by mission runners who generally are not worried about getting ganked since it is a pain to scan them down and gank them. They are not seen as much in low/null because of their relatively high cost, and the easy of ganking them with frigs, cruisers, bombers, etc.. etc...

Which is why, when they are flown outside HiSec, they're accompanied with smaller, supporting ships. Battleships are damn strong, but only when the enemy isn't granted a free pass to dictate how and when their engagements against them occur.

Veers Belvar wrote:
My battleship had 127k ehp, a DC, and two pith A invuls that I overheated. There were 27 catas, all controlled by 1 person of course, in a 0.5 system. Your example is inapposite since the battleship chose to engage you, not realizing that his guns couldn't track you. My point relates specifically to suicide ganking, mainly comparing the dps of the cheap gank ships to the ehp of my expensive battleship, and seeing how much buffer they will burn through before my CONCORD allies arrive. And my conclusion is that the dps of the cheap gank ships is too high relative to the ehp of my well tank battleship. End of story.

ISK tank == worst tank.

Even if we assume those catalsyst cost a mere 2m each, that's a 54m investment versus a what, 250m investment? Your ship was unescorted and was targeted by a fleet of 27 ships, not counting scout. You're looking at a fair deal of logistics and coordination to bring down one ship.

As an aside, what makes you think they were multiboxed? Not that I don't believe you, I rarely see huge fleets operated by one person.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-09-14 03:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Gaming God wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gaming God wrote:


Any way al this **** dossend mather . The point is that suecide ganking needs a balance and a nerf :)


Good luck trying to get people to believe that with no argument behind it whatsoever.


argument :

After jumping an gate you warp to the next gate but before that happens you get ganked by 22 destroyers the insta kill your 1.3 bil golem you get no time to enable your mods or do anyting in your defence . Concord is miles away and you die .

Looks to me this fight is not balanced ad all that was the argument :)


Welcome to EVE, argument invalid.

You undocked in 22bil which someone scanned and then hit you with six Tornados, not 22 destroyers. And even if it had been 22 destroyers, I would still not be shedding a tear. You still haven't explained why this is imbalanced, all you've done is explain what could and does happen in EVE.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-09-14 03:36:21 UTC
Agreed.

Game Mechanics have been heavily skewed to favor Suicide Ganking which has become the top play option available in this game.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#47 - 2014-09-14 03:36:26 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Gaming God wrote:
Any way al this **** dossend mather . The point is that suecide ganking needs a balance and a nerf :)

What evidence have you supplied that supports this claim?

Veers Belvar wrote:
Battleships are the ugly duckling of Eve. They are used by mission runners who generally are not worried about getting ganked since it is a pain to scan them down and gank them. They are not seen as much in low/null because of their relatively high cost, and the easy of ganking them with frigs, cruisers, bombers, etc.. etc...

Which is why, when they are flown outside HiSec, they're accompanied with smaller, supporting ships. Battleships are damn strong, but only when the enemy isn't granted a free pass to dictate how and when their engagements against them occur.

Veers Belvar wrote:
My battleship had 127k ehp, a DC, and two pith A invuls that I overheated. There were 27 catas, all controlled by 1 person of course, in a 0.5 system. Your example is inapposite since the battleship chose to engage you, not realizing that his guns couldn't track you. My point relates specifically to suicide ganking, mainly comparing the dps of the cheap gank ships to the ehp of my expensive battleship, and seeing how much buffer they will burn through before my CONCORD allies arrive. And my conclusion is that the dps of the cheap gank ships is too high relative to the ehp of my well tank battleship. End of story.

ISK tank == worst tank.

Even if we assume those catalsyst cost a mere 2m each, that's a 54m investment versus a what, 250m investment? Your ship was unescorted and was targeted by a fleet of 27 ships, not counting scout. You're looking at a fair deal of logistics and coordination to bring down one ship.

As an aside, what makes you think they were multiboxed? Not that I don't believe you, I rarely see huge fleets operated by one person.



Actually my ship was a reasonably expensive incursion fit Machariel, and the multiboxer was just sitting outside the incursion site on the acc gate waiting for any warping to join the fleet inside. The multiboxing was obvious - all characters created on the same day, all in NPC corp, uniform movement and reaction time, similar name structure, etc.... But yes, I was unimpressed that 54 mil of gank ships could reasonably endanger an expensive Machariel.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-09-14 03:37:04 UTC
Gaming God wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gaming God wrote:


Any way al this **** dossend mather . The point is that suecide ganking needs a balance and a nerf :)


Good luck trying to get people to believe that with no argument behind it whatsoever.


argument :

After jumping an gate you warp to the next gate but before that happens you get ganked by 22 destroyers the insta kill your 1.3 bil golem you get no time to enable your mods or do anyting in your defence . Concord is miles away and you die .

Looks to me this fight is not balanced ad all that was the argument :)

It takes TWENTY TWO pilots (not including scouts), acting as a single coordinated, cohesive unit to bring down your single battleship and you believe that you need MORE power to prevent ganks?

Here's an idea: do some research, tank your ship and stop fitting insanely expensive modules that have no business on a subcap ship.

Ganking isn't overpowered, you're just bad. Learn to play and that ganking problem will stop pretty quick.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-09-14 03:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
Veers Belvar wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


It's not just what I think, and it's not about impressing anyone. You have failed to define 'well tanked' in order to establish a premise for your argument. As such, I have no reason to believe that you are capable of understanding what 'well tanked' means.

On the other hand, you can be as 'well tanked' as you like, if you have a hundred Velators with civ electron blasters on 'em, you're bound to feel some hurt.

Balancing in this game is as such that smaller ships can be capable of taking on the larger ones, and visa-versa. This is why we tell newbs that bigger =/= better, because it's not. I killed a Raven in a Wolf the other day. You out to nerf the Wolf too because a 40mil fit killed a 170mil one? You probably are because you don't understand how balancing works, but I'll give you a hint - it has zero to do with the value of the ganker ship vs the value of the target.



My battleship had 127k ehp, a DC, and two pith A invuls that I overheated. There were 27 catas, all controlled by 1 person of course, in a 0.5 system. Your example is inapposite since the battleship chose to engage you, not realizing that his guns couldn't track you. My point relates specifically to suicide ganking, mainly comparing the dps of the cheap gank ships to the ehp of my expensive battleship, and seeing how much buffer they will burn through before my CONCORD allies arrive. And my conclusion is that the dps of the cheap gank ships is too high relative to the ehp of my well tank battleship. End of story.

And that's why 1, 2, and 5 destroyers couldn't destroy your battleship. 27 can. That is in fact quite balanced. Actually, it's not. It should require less.

Also, 127k EHP?

Quote:
[Rattlesnake, Massive Buffer 3]

Drone Link Augmentor II
5x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Inferno Fury Cruise Missile)

2x Large Shield Extender II
Pith B-Type EM Ward Field
Thermic Dissipation Field II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
10MN Microwarpdrive II

2x Drone Damage Amplifier II
2x Ballistic Control System II
2x Shield Power Relay II

3x Large Core Defense Field Extender II

5x Warrior I
5x Warrior I
2x Republic Fleet Bouncer

with all Vs:
432 dps passive tank, 1196 dps @ 80km, 216,000 EHP

Not that I would use this, because you can just use a proper mission ship and actually scout the gates properly instead.

Hey guys.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#50 - 2014-09-14 03:38:18 UTC
@GamingGod - I hope you realize you were featured on multiple EVE news site for that loss. It's not just us that thinks it's your fault.

Hey guys.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-09-14 03:38:58 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:



Actually my ship was a reasonably expensive incursion fit Machariel, and the multiboxer was just sitting outside the incursion site on the acc gate waiting for any warping to join the fleet inside. The multiboxing was obvious - all characters created on the same day, all in NPC corp, uniform movement and reaction time, similar name structure, etc.... But yes, I was unimpressed that 54 mil of gank ships could reasonably endanger an expensive Machariel.


Pay attention Beers. The value is irrelevant. Value of ships are determined by the player-driven economy. Out there, somewhere, a player is deciding how much you'll pay for his Catalysts. Not CCP. CCP isn't going to 'balance' based on what something is worth or they'd be rebalancing the entire game every five minutes.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#52 - 2014-09-14 03:39:34 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:


Quote:
[Rattlesnake, Massive Buffer 3]

Drone Link Augmentor II
5x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Inferno Fury Cruise Missile)

2x Large Shield Extender II
Pith B-Type EM Ward Field
Thermic Dissipation Field II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
10MN Microwarpdrive II

2x Drone Damage Amplifier II
2x Ballistic Control System II
2x Shield Power Relay II

3x Large Core Defense Field Extender II

5x Warrior I
5x Warrior I
2x Republic Fleet Bouncer


432 dps passive tank, 1196 dps @ 80km, 216,000 EHP


Not that I would use this, because you can just use a proper mission ship and actually scout the gates properly instead.





Missile ships are awful at incursions. Hitting wrecks isn't very useful.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#53 - 2014-09-14 03:40:37 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:



Actually my ship was a reasonably expensive incursion fit Machariel, and the multiboxer was just sitting outside the incursion site on the acc gate waiting for any warping to join the fleet inside. The multiboxing was obvious - all characters created on the same day, all in NPC corp, uniform movement and reaction time, similar name structure, etc.... But yes, I was unimpressed that 54 mil of gank ships could reasonably endanger an expensive Machariel.


Pay attention Beers. The value is irrelevant. Value of ships are determined by the player-driven economy. Out there, somewhere, a player is deciding how much you'll pay for his Catalysts. Not CCP. CCP isn't going to 'balance' based on what something is worth or they'd be rebalancing the entire game every five minutes.


Good catch. Of course dps and ehp levels are completely arbitrarily determined by CCP, as is the mineral cost of different ships.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-09-14 03:42:10 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I have nothing to say so I'm going to completely skip the part where it's incredibly easy for a good battleship tank to do way more than 127ehp and expatiate a strawman just for the sake of being argumentative.


You must have learned from WLC.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#55 - 2014-09-14 03:42:21 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Agreed.

Game Mechanics have been heavily skewed to favor Suicide Ganking which has become the top play option available in this game.



DMC


And now I have to kill yet another miner.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-09-14 03:43:11 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:



ERMERGERD ERBERTRERY!!!!


Nothing arbitrary about it, kiddo.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#57 - 2014-09-14 03:45:41 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I have nothing to say so I'm going to completely skip the part where it's incredibly easy for a good battleship tank to do way more than 127ehp and expatiate a strawman just for the sake of being argumentative.


You must have learned from WLC.


The goal is not to maximize tank. The goal is to balance gank and tank, and for a Machariel, also to utilize low sig radius. In my view 27 cheap T1 fit gank catas should not be able to knock a 127k ehp out pirate faction battleship before CONCORD shows up.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#58 - 2014-09-14 03:49:56 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I have nothing to say so I'm going to completely skip the part where it's incredibly easy for a good battleship tank to do way more than 127ehp and expatiate a strawman just for the sake of being argumentative.


You must have learned from WLC.


The goal is not to maximize tank. The goal is to balance gank and tank, and for a Machariel, also to utilize low sig radius. In my view 27 cheap T1 fit gank catas should not be able to knock a 127k ehp out pirate faction battleship before CONCORD shows up.


And in CCP's view, no one player should be able to survive against being that severely outnumbered just by spending more.

That's my view as well, that pricetag should not determine who wins fights.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-09-14 03:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Veers Belvar wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I have nothing to say so I'm going to completely skip the part where it's incredibly easy for a good battleship tank to do way more than 127ehp and expatiate a strawman just for the sake of being argumentative.


You must have learned from WLC.


The goal is not to maximize tank. The goal is to balance gank and tank, and for a Machariel, also to utilize low sig radius. In my view 27 cheap T1 fit gank catas should not be able to knock a 127k ehp out pirate faction battleship before CONCORD shows up.


I assure you, you can get a very practical combat battleship, be it for PVE or PVP, with a better tank than 127K ehp. We've already been over my Gnosis, which is just a battlecruiser. It managed to tank a T2-gunned Gnosis and his buddy in a Hamgu, solo, kill the Gnosis, and cyno in a small blob to deal with the Tengu shortly before it died. 150K ehp, on a Gnosis dude. 127 is just embarrassing for a battleship, especially if you're claiming you know how to fit.

There are a few T1 fits I will accept as satisfactory with 100-130K ehp tanks, but they are mostly for newbs with low SP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Rykuss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2014-09-14 03:52:26 UTC
You left out some very important facts here, OP. Seems you were awoxed, not ganked, unless it's some huge coincidence that you joined the corp that "ganked" you that day. Bullshit story is bullshit.

You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.