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Snr GM allegedly rules "Starbase Forcefield Ship Bumping" not exploit

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Anthar Thebess
#61 - 2014-09-12 12:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Kenneth Feld wrote:
[quote=Anthar Thebess]

When did you become "The proper way to do this" police? There is no proper way, that is what we are discussing. If you have the password, you don't need subcaps, they take longer to form and you have to bridge them wasting precious time
Again, this does nothing but make it impossible to do even if the password is known and correct
"Please don't kill mai Titanz yo"


Eve is good game because you will always find more than one way to do something.
I'm totally fine with this - but until this is not by abusing bugs.

Lets get back to guess password method :
- you drop capitals on a cyno sitting near to pos , checking if the password is correct.

After 50th retry one of the titans land so close to pos shields that its big model bumps out 6 of the 10 jump freighters out of pos shields.
You achieved this not by knowing the proper password but by "luck" as capital spawned inside of the pos and pos.
Those JF KM you will get are not because you knew the password, but because you abused in game bug.

People are smart - don't want to be against polices , don't want to brake law - why not bump those JF into the pos , and again try to guess the password.
Again people are smart, and people are aware.
If you own a titan, you are usually aware about all possible ways you can loose it , if you use this titan often - for sure you have to be aware about policy prohibiting bumping ships from pos when you don't have access.
If still you are some unaware pilot then there is FC that not gained his position by - not knowing any thing, and again if he don't know - this still does not change any thing.
You agree to follow those rules each time you login to EVE.

So if i don't know that killing others is bad , and against the law ... uh i can grab my gun and start shooting to people, and after this say , ah sorry i was not aware that this is against the law.

Let use another simple life example.
It is hot.
Your neigbor opened door a window to make draught.
You see that there are a lot of money laying on his window , and you know that if you open all your windows, and doors draught will be few times stronger , and will eventually make those money fly out of the window.

So you do it - as you predict the draught makes money to fly out of the window.
You quickly run , pick up them and put to your wallet .... are you a thief?
You didn't take any thing from your neighbour apartment.

Still someone recorded every thing what happened and passed this recording to police.
What they will say?

I see many similarities .
In both cases you reached for something that you should not have access , by abusing some external factor, that is out of your control.
Well wind could stop to blow - you cannot control the wind.
Like you cannot control when cynoned in capitals appear, or how they will bump.

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Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-09-12 12:54:21 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

A player positioned the cyno, and lit it.
The titan pilots subsequently right clicked their capacitor, scrolled to "jump to", and selected the cyno character's name.
It's not as if bumping is something that only happens rarely following these actions taken by a bunch of titan pilots.

In other words, "I didn't know I was going to bump that titan that's in the shields that I don't have access to" is not an excuse, because that was the entire reason for jumping. The bump was not something that just incidentally happened.



You have still FAILED to answer a basic question


How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password

One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing

next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit

Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump

Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?


You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.


You're being thick, but I'll give you two options:

1) Cyno ship puts in the password, tries to enter the shields. If possible, light the cyno.

2) If you didn't guess the correct password, you don't shoot the target.

Former obviously being open to "hmmm, hostile penetrated my POS shields, time to jump out" and latter is open to a random chance of a 3rd party showing up and pointing the titan before it jumps away. No, I don't mean an invited 3rd party, a random roamer through nullsec in a HIC, totally plausible...



If you bothered to read my previous posts;

1) Can't do it, once you enter shields, you lose cloak and the trap is sprung. Or lets say it does work and you enter shields, but Titan pilot sees you. Waits for you to leave and then changes password.

Cyno is lit and everyone jumps in with wrong password, is it still an exploit?


2) so, we are back to leaving the titan 100km from pos in the middle of knowhere is acceptable outcome?


For 2) it is a solution but highly susceptible to be called an exploit if the titan dies.

As for 1) CCP currently states that ALL of the following have to happen when killing a target when it was inside a POS for it to be an exploit:

- Ship has to be bumped outside of the protective bubble; they have to had been inside the bubble to begin with
- POS has to have it's shield up and it has to have a password set which is not known by the aggressors
- POS has to be configured correctly to not allow people outside of corp/alliance to enter it

You are trying to argue that "if we don't know the password, then it surely can't be an exploit". Plausible deniability will not help you here as you knew what the target is, where it is located, who is flying it, if the target is close enough for you to swing one of the aggressing titan's ass towards the protected titan to jettison it out and you bring ships capable of tackling the target.

If you want to argue the original exploit notification from December 2013 then by all means start a dialogue on it with CCP/CSM/F&I.

This thread is about the application of the exploit notification in a case which is outlined on the OP. To stay on topic, can you clarify if the procedure in the OP falls into the exploit notification or not?
Anthar Thebess
#63 - 2014-09-12 13:15:50 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:

As for 1) CCP currently states that ALL of the following have to happen when killing a target when it was inside a POS for it to be an exploit:

- Ship has to be bumped outside of the protective bubble; they have to had been inside the bubble to begin with
- POS has to have it's shield up and it has to have a password set which is not known by the aggressors
- POS has to be configured correctly to not allow people outside of corp/alliance to enter it


People few moments earlier where not able to get into the pos shields as they where from other alliance.
Bridging titans usually don't fly to fast , especially 3000+m/s.
Pos have shields up.
NC fleet bumped out of pos shields , and didn't have access to the pos.

They came to see how a bridging titan looks like, and guess what he left the shields to meet them.

Again people are not stupid.
FC and Cyno pilot had to know what they are doing, rest of the pilots should know the moment titan bumped out of the pos shield.
Let assume that they followed order, and as every one where shooting they also want to get on KM.

Unless CCP will put some bans, like the rules they declared state , the stuff you see on this video will happen more and more often.
Short bans for all pilots that did shoot this titan, as he was leaving pos shields after a bump - they where knowing that hey are abusing bug - but emotions took place...

FC and cyno pilot planed this , prepared, this was cold calculation.
If those people will get perma bans on all their accounts we can hope that this proper signal will stop many more people from braking polices - no matter what this was abusing bug, boting, or RMT.

If you are not executing law , then no one will care to obey it - if no one will obey it then this law is not existing , as you cannot punish every one.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#64 - 2014-09-12 13:58:28 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:

This thread is about the application of the exploit notification in a case which is outlined on the OP. To stay on topic, can you clarify if the procedure in the OP falls into the exploit notification or not?



CCP have CLEARLY said what the OP was talking about is NOT an exploit

Now people are mad because meh Titanz died and they want to implement some sort of recourse, but can't even define where the line is.

Some said intent, well fine, but unenforceable

Some said cyno close to shields - CCP can easily make it so you can't light cyno within 100km of anchored tower - but they HAVEN'T

Then along with intent comes the did they know the password prior to jumping, even if they did and the Titan pilot changed it at the last second, there is NO way to tell - so this is also unenforceable.

Basically CCP have made the only call they can, which is it is a mechanic, they probably don't like it, some player groups don't like it, others do like it.

James Amril-Kesh - that guy argued in the BR thread they shouldn't be immune to scanning because it makes dumb pilots safe. I would say this falls into the same category, any pilot, corp, alliance that uses a POS with a Titan that may even remotely have a password is dumb at best. Even the illusion of a password is asking to lose your Titan.
DumbaDumba
True Power Pos Bashers
#65 - 2014-09-12 14:03:04 UTC
CCP can't enforce their own rules plain and simple.

In 2013 they said POS bumping is illegal, now what?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#66 - 2014-09-12 14:57:02 UTC
DumbaDumba wrote:
CCP can't enforce their own rules plain and simple.

In 2013 they said POS bumping is illegal, now what?



Correct, because this isn't pos bumping, this is cyno bumping, with a pos nearby

Yeah, I know it is semantics, but until they can stop ships bumping on a cyno, they will never prevent this

It has resulted in titans dying from the bumping, both in the fleet that cyno'd in as well as the fleet or titan in cyno'd in on top of


Basically, you have to have a rule that is enforceable, and this one isn't, PERIOD
Anthar Thebess
#67 - 2014-09-12 15:26:43 UTC
Policy is stating : no bumping if you don't have access, or password.

I don't see anywhere information that abusing this bug using cyno is excluded.
Bugging is bugging, whatever you call it .

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DumbaDumba
True Power Pos Bashers
#68 - 2014-09-12 16:42:13 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
DumbaDumba wrote:
CCP can't enforce their own rules plain and simple.

In 2013 they said POS bumping is illegal, now what?



Correct, because this isn't pos bumping, this is cyno bumping, with a pos nearby

Yeah, I know it is semantics, but until they can stop ships bumping on a cyno, they will never prevent this

It has resulted in titans dying from the bumping, both in the fleet that cyno'd in as well as the fleet or titan in cyno'd in on top of


Basically, you have to have a rule that is enforceable, and this one isn't, PERIOD


Donkey ****, horse **** ITS STILL **** AND IT'S HUGE **** just like this exploit.
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2014-09-12 16:57:28 UTC
New pos module: Heavy Warp Disruptor Battery, with a hictor infinipoint. Extremely low scan res, Drop 12 unsupported titans to attempt a cynobump, one or two might get stuck.


Also, from the TMC article on the subject:
Quote:
Below are the radii of the four classes of titan. For this use, the larger the better.

Leviathan: 9000.0
Ragnarok: 8900.0
Erebus: 7500.0
Avatar: 6800.0


Having vastly different sizes of the collision spheres is pretty terrible. Especially since, with a 9km radius it's questionable whether a leviathan can even fit in a medium pos. 20km shield radius, right? The pos itself probably is more than 1km radius, so you end up with very little wiggle room. Put any mods inside the pos and you're screwed.

Maybe the excessively large ones could be lowered a bit -- they have that size because the models are so long, but a tiny bit of clipping on the prongs at the front and back wouldn't be that terrible.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#70 - 2014-09-12 17:58:30 UTC
LOL, just read the TMC article

No Titans entered the forcefield of the POS

Only their invisible sphere did and because the invisible spheres touched and not the ships, there are no logs or some stuff


The definition sounds hokey at best, but as long as I don't get banned, all is good


CYNO UP
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2014-09-12 19:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Kenneth Feld wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

A player positioned the cyno, and lit it.
The titan pilots subsequently right clicked their capacitor, scrolled to "jump to", and selected the cyno character's name.
It's not as if bumping is something that only happens rarely following these actions taken by a bunch of titan pilots.

In other words, "I didn't know I was going to bump that titan that's in the shields that I don't have access to" is not an excuse, because that was the entire reason for jumping. The bump was not something that just incidentally happened.



You have still FAILED to answer a basic question


How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password

One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing

next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit

Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump

Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?


You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.

Yes, I do, because I don't give a **** about your excuses.

Kenneth Feld wrote:
James Amril-Kesh - that guy argued in the BR thread they shouldn't be immune to scanning because it makes dumb pilots safe. I would say this falls into the same category, any pilot, corp, alliance that uses a POS with a Titan that may even remotely have a password is dumb at best. Even the illusion of a password is asking to lose your Titan.

Or just, you know, bridging with a titan in a POS at all, because this thread isn't about passwords.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-09-12 21:51:16 UTC
If a ship inside a POS forcefield being interacted with by a ship outside the force field is a exploit, then almost every titan bridge in the last 6 years has been an exploit.

If the Titan was sitting @ 0 on the tower well inside the forcefield, then sure-- cry exploit. When it is sitting on the razor's edge of the game mechanics, I would hazard that you as just as much at fault. I would suggest not being so close to the shields that a cyno jump could cause you to get bumped.
ISD Supogo
ISD BH
ISD Alliance
#73 - 2014-09-13 01:10:56 UTC
Removed a majorly offensive troll post.

Quote:
5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD BH Supogo

Bughunter

Equipment Certification and Anomaly Investigations Division (ECAID)

Interstellar Services Department
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-09-13 09:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Enaris Kerle
Kell Braugh wrote:
If a ship inside a POS forcefield being interacted with by a ship outside the force field is a exploit, then almost every titan bridge in the last 6 years has been an exploit.

I almost didn't notice how you fought your own strawman there.

Kell Braugh wrote:
If the Titan was sitting @ 0 on the tower well inside the forcefield, then sure-- cry exploit. When it is sitting on the razor's edge of the game mechanics, I would hazard that you as just as much at fault. I would suggest not being so close to the shields that a cyno jump could cause you to get bumped.

Regardless of whether the bumped titan is at fault here, the question is whether CCP's "Exploit Notifications" actually hold any weight. So far, it doesn't look like they do.

ISD Supogo wrote:

You must have missed the memo from ISD Ezwal saying that all of the threads about this topic must be closed with extreme prejudice.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-09-13 10:22:39 UTC
Kell Braugh wrote:
If a ship inside a POS forcefield being interacted with by a ship outside the force field is a exploit, then almost every titan bridge in the last 6 years has been an exploit.

If the Titan was sitting @ 0 on the tower well inside the forcefield, then sure-- cry exploit. When it is sitting on the razor's edge of the game mechanics, I would hazard that you as just as much at fault. I would suggest not being so close to the shields that a cyno jump could cause you to get bumped.


There is no "razor's edge" in a binary situation. Either it's inside or it's outside which has already been defined by CCP to be "fully inside" or "not fully inside". If a part of the titan is poking out of the shield you are allowed to bump that part.

This thread is about titans which are inside the force field being bumped by the collision of an object which intrudes into the force field to bump out a titan which is fully inside the shield.
Anthar Thebess
#76 - 2014-09-13 17:48:33 UTC
There is nothing to discuss.
Eve is a game, complicated , and buggy one.
Some of the bugs are well known , and hard to fix because of lot of work , or dependencies .
Perfect example is pos mechanic that blocks a lot of changes.

Every one know that it is possible to bump something sitting on the edge of pos shields.
People where abusing this - usually to kill something that should be out of their reach - and because of this CCP put simple rule - you have no access to pos shields - you cannot bump ANY THING sitting inside of the shields out of the shields without access to the pos.

GM made mistake. ( if this leaked by NC response is true)

If there is policy that states that something is WHITE , GM cannot say that this is BLACK.

Again.

Server have EULA , and Polices that your duty is to comply each time you login to server.
If policy states :
Quote:
Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.


NC already confirmed that they did this using cyno - bumps.

What we still don't know , is real response from CCP.
What we have is some info leaked by NC.
This could be a troll, and lets hope that this is a troll , because summary of this email is very short:
" You don't have to keep fundamental principles stated in Polices "

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#77 - 2014-09-13 20:37:45 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
There is nothing to discuss.
Eve is a game, complicated , and buggy one.
Some of the bugs are well known , and hard to fix because of lot of work , or dependencies .
Perfect example is pos mechanic that blocks a lot of changes.

Every one know that it is possible to bump something sitting on the edge of pos shields.
People where abusing this - usually to kill something that should be out of their reach - and because of this CCP put simple rule - you have no access to pos shields - you cannot bump ANY THING sitting inside of the shields out of the shields without access to the pos.

GM made mistake. ( if this leaked by NC response is true)

If there is policy that states that something is WHITE , GM cannot say that this is BLACK.

Again.

Server have EULA , and Polices that your duty is to comply each time you login to server.
If policy states :
Quote:
Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.


NC already confirmed that they did this using cyno - bumps.

What we still don't know , is real response from CCP.
What we have is some info leaked by NC.
This could be a troll, and lets hope that this is a troll , because summary of this email is very short:
" You don't have to keep fundamental principles stated in Polices "



The logs showed nothing

Videos don't count as evidence

No harm, no foul - well, OK a titan died, but death to all SC
Anthar Thebess
#78 - 2014-09-13 21:24:29 UTC
If logs don't show nothing, video shows what happened , and we know how to reproduce this.
Bugged logger?

CCP cannot base its actions only on logs.
Because all RMT don't fall under the "logs".

If then every one can sell 100 plex for 1 isk .

Btw.
Why do you think that people are stupid?
This is broken mechanic - CCP is aware about this.
Thats why the policy was put in place.

Death to all supers?
Agree - perma bans all people who where involved in this.
This will be few more titans out of the game, this time game will be free of few buggers.

Think about the impact - people braking polices , and abusing bugs get their titan pilots baned.
Who will ever try again to bug in this way?

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#79 - 2014-09-13 21:50:15 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
If logs don't show nothing, video shows what happened , and we know how to reproduce this.
Bugged logger?

CCP cannot base its actions only on logs.
Because all RMT don't fall under the "logs".

If then every one can sell 100 plex for 1 isk .

Btw.
Why do you think that people are stupid?
This is broken mechanic - CCP is aware about this.
Thats why the policy was put in place.

Death to all supers?
Agree - perma bans all people who where involved in this.
This will be few more titans out of the game, this time game will be free of few buggers.

Think about the impact - people braking polices , and abusing bugs get their titan pilots baned.
Who will ever try again to bug in this way?


I guess maybe you didn't hear yet

CCP said it is NOT a bug and it is OK, so NO ONE will get banned for this

They said it is because the ships are bigger than what you see on screen due to the spheres, so although the spheres touch thru the shield, the ships themselves didn't actually go thru the shields, so it is OK
Anthar Thebess
#80 - 2014-09-13 22:12:19 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
If logs don't show nothing, video shows what happened , and we know how to reproduce this.
Bugged logger?

CCP cannot base its actions only on logs.
Because all RMT don't fall under the "logs".

If then every one can sell 100 plex for 1 isk .

Btw.
Why do you think that people are stupid?
This is broken mechanic - CCP is aware about this.
Thats why the policy was put in place.

Death to all supers?
Agree - perma bans all people who where involved in this.
This will be few more titans out of the game, this time game will be free of few buggers.

Think about the impact - people braking polices , and abusing bugs get their titan pilots baned.
Who will ever try again to bug in this way?


I guess maybe you didn't hear yet

CCP said it is NOT a bug and it is OK, so NO ONE will get banned for this

They said it is because the ships are bigger than what you see on screen due to the spheres, so although the spheres touch thru the shield, the ships themselves didn't actually go thru the shields, so it is OK



I don't see any official CCP statement.
What i see , is titan bumped out of pos shields by people who did not have access to pos.
I also see policy that forbids this kind of abuse.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!