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Snr GM allegedly rules "Starbase Forcefield Ship Bumping" not exploit

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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#41 - 2014-09-11 21:12:35 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Intent matters not. CCP has a hard enough time enforcing is EULA without sifting through the dung heap of intent. Outcome is all that matters. I didn't intend to commit an exploit isn't an excuse. Stay far enough away from the line and there will be no issue. It's pretty simple. I'm quite sure we can find more ways of killing titans if we really tried. Bit that would require logging in for more than just jumping and popping of a round to get some short-term giggles before heading back to Candy Crush.


Therefore you remove the ability to do the legal version also

I see what you did there
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#42 - 2014-09-11 21:25:27 UTC
What this boils down to is you have to be able to enforce whatever policy comes of it, if in fact it is deemed an exploit



You can't fault someone for doing what they think is fair but only find out a password or an informant was wrong AFTER it happens



Every situation is different and unique to a certain extent.


Someone convos a FC from a well known group of people that kills titans, gives him some intel and a POS password. Said FC lights cynos and jumps in Titans that have all entered the password


Bam - everyone permabanned


That in itself should be an exploit and the informant should be permabanned - but again, how do you prove that if they the conversation happened on skype, which isn't in game communication, so therefore can't be looked at by people trying to decide who exploited what
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-09-11 22:55:03 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:


So, if you land and the password doesn't work, and the titans gets bumped out, as long as you don't kill the Titan it is OK

Just leave it in space 100km from POS

How long before your friend next door can come in with a HIC and point it, then you jump away and then back cause he found a Titan floating in space?

Again, this has to be able to be policed


If the target is really AFK, he deserves to die a horrible death for someone random to enter the system, scan the titan down and point it.

It's not complicated and it's quite simple but for some reason CCP cannot figure out what to do.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#44 - 2014-09-11 23:30:36 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:


So, if you land and the password doesn't work, and the titans gets bumped out, as long as you don't kill the Titan it is OK

Just leave it in space 100km from POS

How long before your friend next door can come in with a HIC and point it, then you jump away and then back cause he found a Titan floating in space?

Again, this has to be able to be policed


If the target is really AFK, he deserves to die a horrible death for someone random to enter the system, scan the titan down and point it.

It's not complicated and it's quite simple but for some reason CCP cannot figure out what to do.



Not exactly, CCP have figured out what to do and said it was OK

You just don't like their answer, so you are trying to craft your own, which is admirable

I am just pointing out where ideas are basically impossible to enforce or why they won't work. I honestly don't care one way or the other, I just don't want some arbitrary hard to enforce crappy rule.
Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#45 - 2014-09-11 23:56:51 UTC
Its a proven fact that ships, namely- titans that cyno right onto the shield edge are able to affect (bump) another titan that is inside the shields when they do not have legit access to the tower (the password) that is the only thing anyone is complaining about.

.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#46 - 2014-09-12 01:20:11 UTC
Cherry Yeyo wrote:
Its a proven fact that ships, namely- titans that cyno right onto the shield edge are able to affect (bump) another titan that is inside the shields when they do not have legit access to the tower (the password) that is the only thing anyone is complaining about.



All I am saying is there is a difference between not having legit access and THINKING you have legit access, when you don't as far as dealing with this as an exploit

If you **think** you have access, then should you face a ban cause some spai gave you the wrong info?

The problem is by the time you found out, you have already done the exploit, you can undo it
Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#47 - 2014-09-12 02:05:31 UTC
Welp, heres some more angles and mechanics for our esteemed csm consideration

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2g5h6q/nc_using_exploits_to_kill_titans_yet_again/

.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2014-09-12 02:32:22 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
You just don't like their answer

I tend not to like wrong answers.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2014-09-12 05:20:21 UTC
Why is this being argued the rules are black and white.

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit."

06.12.2013 10:53 By CCP Falcon
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#50 - 2014-09-12 05:27:14 UTC
afkboss wrote:
Why is this being argued the rules are black and white.

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit."

06.12.2013 10:53 By CCP Falcon




Because the game is doing the bumping, not the players

Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-09-12 05:30:56 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
afkboss wrote:
Why is this being argued the rules are black and white.

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit."

06.12.2013 10:53 By CCP Falcon




Because the game is doing the bumping, not the players

Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens



Bullshit, It is clear in the videos that the players intended this to happen
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-09-12 06:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

A player positioned the cyno, and lit it.
The titan pilots subsequently right clicked their capacitor, scrolled to "jump to", and selected the cyno character's name.
It's not as if bumping is something that only happens rarely following these actions taken by a bunch of titan pilots.

In other words, "I didn't know I was going to bump that titan that's in the shields that I don't have access to" is not an excuse, because that was the entire reason for jumping. The bump was not something that just incidentally happened.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Anthar Thebess
#53 - 2014-09-12 06:54:43 UTC
Sorry , but this way you can eventually bump every thing out of the pos.
Nothing is safe.
Jumping 10 titans/ motherships/carriers not helping?
Bring 200 capitals and supers - something will eventually bump in the right direction.

If ccp will allow this to happen , even when they already stated that this is banable exploit then NO, i repeat NO ship will be safe.

Carrier sitting in a lowsec pos - cyno ... and his dead.
Jump freighter - next on KB.
Titan , Mothership - dead.

The smaller the pos - the easier to achieve this thing.

On a video i see titan bumped inside of the shield , moving at high velocity and then bumping out of the pos shield by pos internal infrastructure.

I don't see any reason for this fleet to jump in so close to the pos if their intention was not to achieve what they did.

Sorry , don't say people do not have control of their ships.
Those are very experienced pilots and FC , they know what they where doing.

IF GM thinks that they where at any risk - then this GM should play game more often.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Xapitan Bomba
#54 - 2014-09-12 09:37:18 UTC
Thanks for bringing attention to this topic, I almost resubbed my superchar and his trusty cynoalt to complete training for a Levi before winter.
_ALMOST_, Thank you, guys.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#55 - 2014-09-12 11:07:13 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

A player positioned the cyno, and lit it.
The titan pilots subsequently right clicked their capacitor, scrolled to "jump to", and selected the cyno character's name.
It's not as if bumping is something that only happens rarely following these actions taken by a bunch of titan pilots.

In other words, "I didn't know I was going to bump that titan that's in the shields that I don't have access to" is not an excuse, because that was the entire reason for jumping. The bump was not something that just incidentally happened.



You have still FAILED to answer a basic question


How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password

One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing

next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit

Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump

Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?


You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.
Anthar Thebess
#56 - 2014-09-12 11:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Sorry but this broke all current rules.

We again have official policy that any bumping from a pos that is not accessible to you is forbidden and banable and GM that states you can do it !

So if next time i see 10 JF sitting on pos , i can drop as many capitals and supers on this pos as i want - i don't decide where they will show up after cynoning in or how and where they will bump.

Even when this takes few dozen retries - they will land on my KB.
Those pilots should be smart enough and don't bump from my capitals, especially out side of the shields.


Assuming that this GM made a mistake , as apparently logs do not show every thing:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/?_ga=1.175224363.885423068.1386857820

Quote:
Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.

Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP Games’ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.


But thanks to someone we have a movie from this action :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5EcXko2vs

Proper bans should be applied.
My personal opinion :
- perma ban for FC & cyno pilot accounts
- some temporary ban for all pilots exploiting this bug

Why?
We are not talking about newbites , but experienced people who where aware what they are doing.
FC from big alliance will not put titan fleet in danger unless he is fully aware what he is doing .
The same goes for a cyno pilot - he have to place a cyno in a proper place for this abuse of game bug to happen.
Rest of the people do not have to be aware what will happen - they are just there to jump in and shoot.

Banned accounts should be proper signal for all players involved in prohibited activities Bots, RMT or exploiting in game bugs.
DO NOT DO IT - ALL YOUR ACCOUNTS WILL BE BANNED.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-09-12 11:43:27 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

A player positioned the cyno, and lit it.
The titan pilots subsequently right clicked their capacitor, scrolled to "jump to", and selected the cyno character's name.
It's not as if bumping is something that only happens rarely following these actions taken by a bunch of titan pilots.

In other words, "I didn't know I was going to bump that titan that's in the shields that I don't have access to" is not an excuse, because that was the entire reason for jumping. The bump was not something that just incidentally happened.



You have still FAILED to answer a basic question


How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password

One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing

next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit

Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump

Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?


You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.


You're being thick, but I'll give you two options:

1) Cyno ship puts in the password, tries to enter the shields. If possible, light the cyno.

2) If you didn't guess the correct password, you don't shoot the target.

Former obviously being open to "hmmm, hostile penetrated my POS shields, time to jump out" and latter is open to a random chance of a 3rd party showing up and pointing the titan before it jumps away. No, I don't mean an invited 3rd party, a random roamer through nullsec in a HIC, totally plausible...
Anthar Thebess
#58 - 2014-09-12 11:49:26 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:

You have still FAILED to answer a basic question
How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password
One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing
next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit
Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump
Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?

You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.


Very simple - if you have password to a pos , like history shows - you don't drop titan fleet hoping for a bump , but you cyno in subcapitals perfect for bumping , and some tackle like dictors and hictors.

Why?
People are not stupid. Especially FC able to call for a supercapital fleet in alliances like NC or PL.
You know password - drop capitals - bump maybe will occur, but you are not 100% sure.
Even when bump occurs, enemy ship my still land in pos shields - then what?
Order other titans to put their MWD on and try to make another bump ? 10km away?
Enemy pilot can click safe logout ... and your ships still will not in a half way to it when it disappears.
He can jump out , change password - and you endangered your supers for nothing.

The proper way to do it , and how people are doing it - is to drop subcapitals that will bump titan from shields, 1-2 bump from machariels and he will have no chance of surviving. You also drop initial tackle, dictors and hictors that will keep your target in place.

I don't know what you want to achieve asking this question.
Most of eve players , are bit more intelligent that in normal MMO, and i don't think that CCP employees are different.

Look at this recording - all titans and subcapitals are bouncing off pos shield.
None of them had access , and unless there is new MWD 1000 for Titans - titan moving 3000+/s means one thing BUMP - and all those spreaded out titans confirm this.


Let me just ask you a question.
You have 10 enemy JF sitting at small pos - and you really want to kill them.

You don't know the password - but no one forbids you to guess it by yourself.
" OK cyno up"
" First group set password 0001, jump in. "
" Seccond group set password 0002, jump in"
" Third group set password 0003, jump in"
(...)

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#59 - 2014-09-12 12:06:17 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

A player positioned the cyno, and lit it.
The titan pilots subsequently right clicked their capacitor, scrolled to "jump to", and selected the cyno character's name.
It's not as if bumping is something that only happens rarely following these actions taken by a bunch of titan pilots.

In other words, "I didn't know I was going to bump that titan that's in the shields that I don't have access to" is not an excuse, because that was the entire reason for jumping. The bump was not something that just incidentally happened.



You have still FAILED to answer a basic question


How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password

One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing

next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit

Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump

Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?


You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.


You're being thick, but I'll give you two options:

1) Cyno ship puts in the password, tries to enter the shields. If possible, light the cyno.

2) If you didn't guess the correct password, you don't shoot the target.

Former obviously being open to "hmmm, hostile penetrated my POS shields, time to jump out" and latter is open to a random chance of a 3rd party showing up and pointing the titan before it jumps away. No, I don't mean an invited 3rd party, a random roamer through nullsec in a HIC, totally plausible...



If you bothered to read my previous posts;

1) Can't do it, once you enter shields, you lose cloak and the trap is sprung. Or lets say it does work and you enter shields, but Titan pilot sees you. Waits for you to leave and then changes password.

Cyno is lit and everyone jumps in with wrong password, is it still an exploit?


2) so, we are back to leaving the titan 100km from pos in the middle of knowhere is acceptable outcome?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#60 - 2014-09-12 12:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:

You have still FAILED to answer a basic question
How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password
One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing
next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit
Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump
Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?

You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.


Very simple - if you have password to a pos , like history shows - you don't drop titan fleet hoping for a bump , but you cyno in subcapitals perfect for bumping , and some tackle like dictors and hictors.

Why?
People are not stupid. Especially FC able to call for a supercapital fleet in alliances like NC or PL.
You know password - drop capitals - bump maybe will occur, but you are not 100% sure.
Even when bump occurs, enemy ship my still land in pos shields - then what?
Order other titans to put their MWD on and try to make another bump ? 10km away?
Enemy pilot can click safe logout ... and your ships still will not in a half way to it when it disappears.
He can jump out , change password - and you endangered your supers for nothing.

The proper way to do it , and how people are doing it - is to drop subcapitals that will bump titan from shields, 1-2 bump from machariels and he will have no chance of surviving. You also drop initial tackle, dictors and hictors that will keep your target in place.

I don't know what you want to achieve asking this question.
Most of eve players , are bit more intelligent that in normal MMO, and i don't think that CCP employees are different.

Look at this recording - all titans and subcapitals are bouncing off pos shield.
None of them had access , and unless there is new MWD 1000 for Titans - titan moving 3000+/s means one thing BUMP - and all those spreaded out titans confirm this.


Let me just ask you a question.
You have 10 enemy JF sitting at small pos - and you really want to kill them.

You don't know the password - but no one forbids you to guess it by yourself.
" OK cyno up"
" First group set password 0001, jump in. "
" Seccond group set password 0002, jump in"
" Third group set password 0003, jump in"
(...)


When did you become "The proper way to do this" police? There is no proper way, that is what we are discussing. If you have the password, you don't need subcaps, they take longer to form and you have to bridge them wasting precious time


Again, this does nothing but make it impossible to do even if the password is known and correct


"Please don't kill mai Titanz yo"