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Re: Asayanami Dei (You didn't spell it right)

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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#61 - 2014-09-11 14:57:36 UTC
What's that? A blocked post? Must be another troll alt....
So, Asay, what is your personal take on limited clone swap in wormholes? (Trying to brig this back on topic a bit) I envision something like a very limited number of clones available and only being able to jump, say, every 12 hours. I say 12 instead of the jump clone 24 because we wouldn't be jumping across New Eden and it would encourage new engagements while also encouraging you to make the right strategic choice.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#62 - 2014-09-11 15:02:29 UTC
Oh the sad state of this subforum.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-09-11 15:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Aiyshimin wrote:

I only give one reason because it's as many as you gave.
1) it only caters to the risk averse (as you already admitted that reducing your risk is the only reason you want clone swapping)


I actually gave several reasons if you cared to read between the lines so i'll just assume that you can't answer the question.

Anyway you are wrong on both accounts. Firstly it's little to do with risk and more to do with common sense and secondly, clone swapping would also be used for PVPers willing to take risks (e.g. having a clone for shield ships and having one for armour).

But i'd rather not continue this pointless argument as neither of us are going to change our minds, so lets agree to disagree.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#64 - 2014-09-11 16:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:

So, Asay, what is your personal take on limited clone swap in wormholes? (Trying to brig this back on topic a bit) I envision something like a very limited number of clones available and only being able to jump, say, every 12 hours. I say 12 instead of the jump clone 24 because we wouldn't be jumping across New Eden and it would encourage new engagements while also encouraging you to make the right strategic choice.


There should be a price to pay for doing this. Not necessarily time-wise. I've been trying to think of something that would encourage more firing of large guns at things.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#65 - 2014-09-11 16:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Training an alt with very good frigate skills but cheap clone and cheap implants takes maybe 3 months. Every wormholer can easily have such an alt on one of his accounts. Now with dual training you don't even need to pause training on your main.

Okay, I have also read your other replies on this thread.

No. Plain and simple. Buy an alt is not a valid option. I should not have to have an alt to play this game, end of argument. Seraph is, and will remain, my only character to which I play this game.

Stating "oh well you can just create a new character and roll with that" is just;

a) Not an option for some people in this game.
b) A rather broken way to get around this new mechanic, and other mechanics. (Sod it I'll just roll an alt etc etc).
c) Is counterintuitive to the problem at hand. (And I am pretty sure not everyone wants alts).

The ability to swap into a different clone in wormholes comes with several problems also, the biggest on I see is podding people to maintain hole control during a seige will no longer have an affect. To counter this, I think that clone swapping should be allowed, but not unless you are in the wormhole system that your clone is stored. A little more hard work for the Devs to implement, sure. But this would stop people jumping from wormholes to K-space and vice versa.

---
Aiyshimin wrote:
1) it only caters to the risk averse (as you already admitted that reducing your risk is the only reason you want clone swapping)
Aiyshimin wrote:
Did I say that risk averse is a bad thing? You seem to feel like it is. Some people just are risk averse and it is ok. I just don't think this game specifically caters to them, or that wormholes as a sub environment in EVE should be modified to suite them better.

Wormholes already allow for varied strategies. The perceived limitations you present are only subjective results of personal choices.

Seriously... Your argument is all over the place. Just stop.
You're complaining that having clones in wormholes caters for the risk averse and stating this is a reason not to have it. Then you're saying "oh no I didn't mean it as a bad thing". If you think risk aversion is not a bad thing, why then did you use risk aversion as a counter argument?
At least figure out your argument before you type please.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-09-11 16:30:37 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:

The ability to swap into a different clone in wormholes comes with several problems also, the biggest on I see is podding people to maintain hole control during a seige will no longer have an affect. To counter this, I think that clone swapping should be allowed, but not unless you are in the wormhole system that your clone is stored. A little more hard work for the Devs to implement, sure. But this would stop people jumping from wormholes to K-space and vice versa.


To be clear, what most people have in mind is literal just a clone swap. You would go up to the Rorqual or some new pos mod, select your sleeping clone and swap your current clone for the sleeping one. When you get podded you go to your medical clone in K-space.

... at least, that's what i hope others have in mind Straight
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#67 - 2014-09-11 16:33:54 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:

The ability to swap into a different clone in wormholes comes with several problems also, the biggest on I see is podding people to maintain hole control during a seige will no longer have an affect. To counter this, I think that clone swapping should be allowed, but not unless you are in the wormhole system that your clone is stored. A little more hard work for the Devs to implement, sure. But this would stop people jumping from wormholes to K-space and vice versa.


To be clear, what most people have in mind is literal just a clone swap. You would go up to the Rorqual or some new pos mod, select your sleeping clone and swap your current clone for the sleeping one. When you get podded you go to your medical clone in K-space.

... at least, that's what i hope others have in mind Straight

Yep, that is too, what I have in mind. Would be a little more hard work for the Devs to implement I am sure, but that would solve the issue for me at least.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#68 - 2014-09-11 17:15:32 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:

The ability to swap into a different clone in wormholes comes with several problems also, the biggest on I see is podding people to maintain hole control during a seige will no longer have an affect. To counter this, I think that clone swapping should be allowed, but not unless you are in the wormhole system that your clone is stored. A little more hard work for the Devs to implement, sure. But this would stop people jumping from wormholes to K-space and vice versa.


To be clear, what most people have in mind is literal just a clone swap. You would go up to the Rorqual or some new pos mod, select your sleeping clone and swap your current clone for the sleeping one. When you get podded you go to your medical clone in K-space.

... at least, that's what i hope others have in mind Straight

Yep, that is too, what I have in mind. Would be a little more hard work for the Devs to implement I am sure, but that would solve the issue for me at least.

Actually, make it Eve wide by allowing clone swapping (as opposed to jumping) only if you are within activation range of the module. Make it look like swapping ships from a hangar, one goes in and the other comes out. Problem solved. I would imagine that the vast majority of the code should be scavengeable from existing code, it should just be a matter of incorporating the new option in the proper place, writing a few text boxes, and then isolating and piecing together the Copy/Pasted code. I could be wrong on that though, but I am certain that the Devs wouldn't have to start from scratch.
And yes, I am all for clone swapping in wormholes and not jumping. If you're podded anywhere, it's back to your med clone since your WH clone can't be connected to the network blahblah....
Allow it to be done a maximum of 2-3 times in a 24hr period (or less, hypothetical numbers), and I think there will be a measurable upswing in wormhole combat being done out of T3's and their support ships. If frig holes are destined to stay, I think that clone swapping in such a manner would encourage players to go roam for the day in a frig clone while still running the risk of being podded out of their hole. Not too mention, a wormholers frig clone is likely going to be nearly as expensive as his/her main clone, just with frig specific implants. This differentiates WH frig content from nullbear frig content in that wormholers would not be using empty jump clones and blob warfare where numbers are king, strategy would still reign supreme in wormholes, players would just have more choices available and less reasons to POS up.

*Asay, you're probably buried 10ft over your head in a bunch of stuff (RL included), but I think most of the people in this thread would love to see how you weigh in on this.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-09-11 17:39:25 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
No, I didn't present that argument, you said that you want clone swapping because k-space has it and only it unlocks frigate fights for you. CCP isn't bringing gates or stations to w-space afaik. Are you worried?

Free ships would encourage more players to PVP, but it doesn't mean free ships are a good idea.

Are you happier to lose your 2 bil clone if you lose a 1.5bil ship with it? Or you just don't take any fights where you could possibly die? If you don't realize that this is all about your personal tendency towards risk aversity, I must be talking to a moron.



I think that the greater point to be made here is that W-space should be able to provide you with an income or economic incentives enough to allow you to not give two squirts of lemonade if you die in a T3 or a noobship with that head full of high-grade Slaves.

W-spacers take the greatest risks in living out here and we should have our insatiable appatites(sp) for destruction sustainably fed.

If we go by CCP's perogative that if Hisec Incursions pay out the nose for little to no risk of great personal loss, then Sleeper anoms should be ISK ATMs with only one button that says "Dispense ISK."

Pro TIps
Doomheim
#70 - 2014-09-11 19:20:40 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
I think that the greater point to be made here is that W-space should be able to provide you with an income or economic incentives enough to allow you to not give two squirts of lemonade if you die in a T3 or a noobship with that head full of high-grade Slaves.

That's a more extreme position than mine; but I would like more income. Currently I'm not playing in W-space because I've lost enough ISK since Hyperion that it just doesn't make sense to me. Did I make bad decisions leading to that ISK loss? No, it was all the result of frig fleets jumping through newly-spawned holes. What can be done to mitigate that risk? Just not run anom sites at all? Guess what, I'm not anymore. Content is lost.
LT Alter
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#71 - 2014-09-11 19:31:16 UTC
Thanks for the reply Asay.

Also, while trying not to get off topic of the thread I would like to propose an idea for the people talking about the wormhole space jump cloning. Say there was a structure added for it, lets just call it a mobile cloning facility for simplicity sake. This structure would allow you to make new clones and store one clone (per person) at a time. You can swap your clone from it using a regular jump clone time limit, if you get podded you can not 'jump clone' back to it for 48 hours, and to jump clone to the facility it must be activated by another character with a certain skill so it can't be a random no-skills alt character. Or it could just be a jump clone swapping facility with no ability to jump clone to it but rather only to swap clones while in space next to it.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#72 - 2014-09-11 19:54:28 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
Thanks for the reply Asay.

Also, while trying not to get off topic of the thread I would like to propose an idea for the people talking about the wormhole space jump cloning. Say there was a structure added for it, lets just call it a mobile cloning facility for simplicity sake. This structure would allow you to make new clones and store one clone (per person) at a time. You can swap your clone from it using a regular jump clone time limit, if you get podded you can not 'jump clone' back to it for 48 hours, and to jump clone to the facility it must be activated by another character with a certain skill so it can't be a random no-skills alt character. Or it could just be a jump clone swapping facility with no ability to jump clone to it but rather only to swap clones while in space next to it.

For the sake of putting everyone on the same level, I am against being able to jump into it. This would give large groups even more of an edge over smaller groups and tends to go against established wormhole philosophy in a pretty radical way.
I think 1-2 clones, per person, would be best. Even better if CCP could find a way to make it 1-2 clones per wormhole and not just per module.
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#73 - 2014-09-11 22:05:39 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Thanks for the reply Asay.

Also, while trying not to get off topic of the thread I would like to propose an idea for the people talking about the wormhole space jump cloning. Say there was a structure added for it, lets just call it a mobile cloning facility for simplicity sake. This structure would allow you to make new clones and store one clone (per person) at a time. You can swap your clone from it using a regular jump clone time limit, if you get podded you can not 'jump clone' back to it for 48 hours, and to jump clone to the facility it must be activated by another character with a certain skill so it can't be a random no-skills alt character. Or it could just be a jump clone swapping facility with no ability to jump clone to it but rather only to swap clones while in space next to it.

For the sake of putting everyone on the same level, I am against being able to jump into it. This would give large groups even more of an edge over smaller groups and tends to go against established wormhole philosophy in a pretty radical way.
I think 1-2 clones, per person, would be best. Even better if CCP could find a way to make it 1-2 clones per wormhole and not just per module.

Jumping of any kind is a no-no. I don't think I have to explain why that would be bad. Swaping implants is the general idea simply because it would allow for more, different doctrines then the usual. People often specialize greatly in what they fly and what implants they use to acount for that. Adding the ability of easier swaping of implants (clones) would in my opinion simple loosen up the meta in w-space at least. THe mechanics of this are something that needs to be hashed out. It's on the little things list for w-space already. This needs to be approached very carefuly not to make it OP. It is also not easy to do.

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I--THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY

Youtube: /asayanami

Twitter: @asayanami

wormholefundamentals.com

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#74 - 2014-09-11 22:14:07 UTC
Asayanami Dei wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Thanks for the reply Asay.

Also, while trying not to get off topic of the thread I would like to propose an idea for the people talking about the wormhole space jump cloning. Say there was a structure added for it, lets just call it a mobile cloning facility for simplicity sake. This structure would allow you to make new clones and store one clone (per person) at a time. You can swap your clone from it using a regular jump clone time limit, if you get podded you can not 'jump clone' back to it for 48 hours, and to jump clone to the facility it must be activated by another character with a certain skill so it can't be a random no-skills alt character. Or it could just be a jump clone swapping facility with no ability to jump clone to it but rather only to swap clones while in space next to it.

For the sake of putting everyone on the same level, I am against being able to jump into it. This would give large groups even more of an edge over smaller groups and tends to go against established wormhole philosophy in a pretty radical way.
I think 1-2 clones, per person, would be best. Even better if CCP could find a way to make it 1-2 clones per wormhole and not just per module.

Jumping of any kind is a no-no. I don't think I have to explain why that would be bad. Swaping implants is the general idea simply because it would allow for more, different doctrines then the usual. People often specialize greatly in what they fly and what implants they use to acount for that. Adding the ability of easier swaping of implants (clones) would in my opinion simple loosen up the meta in w-space at least. THe mechanics of this are something that needs to be hashed out. It's on the little things list for w-space already. This needs to be approached very carefuly not to make it OP. It is also not easy to do.

I completely agree. Jumping is terri-bad and I'm glad you approve of swapping, it giveth me hope. Smile
On that note, I had an idea a few days ago and posted it in one the "little things" threads about CCP crowd sourcing the code for approved little things. I am no programmer, I'm taking a class in it, but I think that would be a pretty innovative way for some of the little things to get incorporated with a minimal amount of headaches for the Devs. But that's pretty unrelated here...
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#75 - 2014-09-12 04:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
I'm not currently in W-space, but having made a pretty good go of it recently: is there anything wrong with just enabling Rorqual clone vat bays? Maybe add a restriction that the ship has to be outside of POS shields on top of the need for it to be in space, piloted, and actively running the clone vat bay? I believe that you already have to be close to the Rorq to use the service. Maybe extend the POS shield restriction to anyone trying to use it? That seems like a particularly wormhole-y way to solve the problem: yes, we can swap clones, but it's exactly the sort of risky hack that lets you know you really are out in the wilderness.

EDIT: And, since Rorqs can only accommodate so many clones? Decisions, decisions. Twisted

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#76 - 2014-09-12 04:53:19 UTC
Asayanami Dei wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Thanks for the reply Asay.

Also, while trying not to get off topic of the thread I would like to propose an idea for the people talking about the wormhole space jump cloning. Say there was a structure added for it, lets just call it a mobile cloning facility for simplicity sake. This structure would allow you to make new clones and store one clone (per person) at a time. You can swap your clone from it using a regular jump clone time limit, if you get podded you can not 'jump clone' back to it for 48 hours, and to jump clone to the facility it must be activated by another character with a certain skill so it can't be a random no-skills alt character. Or it could just be a jump clone swapping facility with no ability to jump clone to it but rather only to swap clones while in space next to it.

For the sake of putting everyone on the same level, I am against being able to jump into it. This would give large groups even more of an edge over smaller groups and tends to go against established wormhole philosophy in a pretty radical way.
I think 1-2 clones, per person, would be best. Even better if CCP could find a way to make it 1-2 clones per wormhole and not just per module.

Jumping of any kind is a no-no. I don't think I have to explain why that would be bad. Swaping implants is the general idea simply because it would allow for more, different doctrines then the usual. People often specialize greatly in what they fly and what implants they use to acount for that. Adding the ability of easier swaping of implants (clones) would in my opinion simple loosen up the meta in w-space at least. THe mechanics of this are something that needs to be hashed out. It's on the little things list for w-space already. This needs to be approached very carefuly not to make it OP. It is also not easy to do.


Yeah there ought to be some kind of price to be paid to swap clones. One of the biggest problems is instant clone swapping in your home system makes home-field advantage even greater than it already is. There's huge advantages to clone swapping to fight a group on the offensive. That is, if they don't catch you by surprise.

I'm not sure I'd like to see it implemented behind a POS shield. One idea I had, was to make this thing an anchorable that could not be placed in the same wormhole that you have an anchored tower belonging to your corp/alliance. You'd then have to go to your neighboring static to anchor it and use it. This would make it so everything could be shot at and it would be harder to use against an offensive force. Reinforcement would be on the table as a nod to expensive clones being put into it. Like 2-4 hours. Enough time to scramble a fleet but not so long that you'll lose it to a wormhole collapsing naturally nor would a contesting group lose access to it barring either side risking a combat roll.

This would open a lot of pew pew options without necessarily breaking the idea of clone-swapping for everyday use. Course everything including swapped clones would need to be added to killmails.
stup idity
#77 - 2014-09-12 07:07:19 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Many people make excuses to not fight and it's impossible to remove all their imaginary barriers, they will invent new ones.


Did you (killboard of 26:13) just call Rek (killboard of ~1300:50) a risk averse carebear? Seems funny, considering he has lost more than twice of what you have ever participated in killing.

I am the Herald of all beings that are me.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#78 - 2014-09-12 07:29:02 UTC
stup idity wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Many people make excuses to not fight and it's impossible to remove all their imaginary barriers, they will invent new ones.


Did you (killboard of 26:13) just call Rek (killboard of ~1300:50) a risk averse carebear? Seems funny, considering he has lost more than twice of what you have ever participated in killing.

That's OBVIOUSLY not his main, don't you know how wh forum warfare works? Even though you are probably right you cant be sure because you dont know who his main is.

its how risk averse forum worriors fight.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

stup idity
#79 - 2014-09-12 08:36:33 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
stup idity wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Many people make excuses to not fight and it's impossible to remove all their imaginary barriers, they will invent new ones.


Did you (killboard of 26:13) just call Rek (killboard of ~1300:50) a risk averse carebear? Seems funny, considering he has lost more than twice of what you have ever participated in killing.

That's OBVIOUSLY not his main, don't you know how wh forum warfare works? Even though you are probably right you cant be sure because you dont know who his main is.

its how risk averse forum worriors fight.


And to prove your point, I do most posting on my forum alt logistic and trading main.

I am the Herald of all beings that are me.

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#80 - 2014-09-12 09:21:50 UTC
Asayanami Dei wrote:

It's on the little things list for w-space already.


OK so I know there was a thread authored by Corby for this. But where's the list? Can you guys post the list and get it stickied?