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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#501 - 2014-09-11 22:56:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Helene Fidard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him. You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him. If he gets mad, do the smart thing and ignore him. There is no need to further rile people up for tear harvesting purposes. Be the better man and move on with the game.


So what you're saying is that there is a group of self-selected Honourable Space Folk to whom rules do apply, and another group of people in pods who can do or say whatever they like.


What I'm saying is to realize that when you have just vaporized weeks or months of a person's effort to appreciate that may be unhappy or angry, and may verbally abuse you, and to just ignore them and move on. Definitely don't add more fuel to the fire and relish in their "tears."

No.

Their verbal abuse is not any more acceptable than verbal abuse in general. Just because you blew up their ship does not give them the right to spew real life threats, racism, etc.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#502 - 2014-09-11 22:58:29 UTC
Cismet wrote:


You now have 20 pages and growing of forum thread effectively screaming that you're wrong on this matter


Lol.

You need to learn to count mate. Everyone is supporting the bans. There is exactly 10 trolls that got #rekt and are posting pages and pages of tears about it, but quantity does NOT equal quality.
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#503 - 2014-09-11 22:59:35 UTC
So, this thread has run its course. There's just cyclical discussion now by the group strife with polarization, that they now just present points inconsistent with their prior statements. It's almost like because they've now invested so many tears and sleepless hours into this thread, they must see it to fruition -- which they'll never achieve, as it's counter to public conscience. The forever changing goal posts, the non cited examples that provide mere strawman points to the down right ad hominem, they've really tried it all.

I don't think you'll ever truly find a point to stand on in this discussion guys, just a heads up. I think you should awox a corp to vent, or something. I'm rather disappointed actually, I thought those that took such pride in harvesting anger from people would be much more composed in their discussion, except I just see logical fallacies backed up tears as clear as day. Enjoy guys and gals, it's been fun.

#transformersrollout
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#504 - 2014-09-11 23:00:13 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Helene Fidard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him. You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him. If he gets mad, do the smart thing and ignore him. There is no need to further rile people up for tear harvesting purposes. Be the better man and move on with the game.


So what you're saying is that there is a group of self-selected Honourable Space Folk to whom rules do apply, and another group of people in pods who can do or say whatever they like.


What I'm saying is to realize that when you have just vaporized weeks or months of a person's effort to appreciate that may be unhappy or angry, and may verbally abuse you, and to just ignore them and move on. Definitely don't add more fuel to the fire and relish in their "tears."

No.

Their verbal abuse is not any more acceptable than verbal abuse in general. Just because you blew up their ship does not give them the right to spew real life threats, racism, etc.


So block them, petition it and move on. Given that just lost weeks or months worth of effort they are going to be in a far more emotionally vulnerable state than you are, and are more likely to become victimized or have a meltdown. If you don't like what they are saying, then by all means go report it to CCP, but don't egg them on. Simple.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#505 - 2014-09-11 23:01:45 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
So block them, petition it and move on. Given that just lost weeks or months worth of effort they are going to be in a far more emotionally vulnerable state than you are, and are more likely to become victimized or have a meltdown. If you don't like what they are saying, then by all means go report it to CCP, but don't egg them on. Simple.

So again what you're saying is that one group is responsible for their actions, and another is not.
Okay.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#506 - 2014-09-11 23:09:14 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Cismet wrote:


You now have 20 pages and growing of forum thread effectively screaming that you're wrong on this matter


Lol.

You need to learn to count mate. Everyone is supporting the bans. There is exactly 10 trolls that got #rekt and are posting pages and pages of tears about it, but quantity does NOT equal quality.


You can neither support or decry the bans, as noone has any idea why anyone has been banned aside from the vaguest notion that it was something to do with harassment and RL was involved in some way shape and form.

There are a few people saying the bans are right, there are a few saying the bans are wrong. The majority of the posts on the matter are about CCP being transparent as to the reason for the bans and actually defining what is considered unacceptable in a game where almost everything is permitted. CCP allow actions that are defined as griefing and harassment almost universally but refuse to define what they consider too far. This is unacceptable. If it were as simple as just saying act with human decency, then fine. But under those circumstances there would be little scamming (theft is not in line with human decency), no ganking, no "carebear tear harvests", because that's bullying and is against public decency, no awoxing, no shiny ship hunting..... all of these actions could easily be considered harassment. The issue is that CCP allows harassment. They encourage harassment because they want Eve to be gritty and harsh and unforgiving. What the majority are stating is that they need to define when harassment is too far.

Noone is claiming they don't have the right to issue bans, few people are claiming they were right or wrong, they just want to know where the line is so they don't cross it. Yes a few people will push their luck, but in a game where harassment is legal and even encouraged, you can't then turn around and state human decency and "you know when it's too far" because people don't. I'm not on the other end of the keyboard with the other person, I don't know what they're doing. If I kill their 10 billion ISK shiny fit, odds are they're going to be going mental and really upset, but that's not enough for a ban? Well what is, that's the whole issue for me, and many others. It's not about the tears of any one group (a form of harassment again that's totally allowed and encouraged) but about transparency in a world that's supposed to be on the edge.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#507 - 2014-09-11 23:10:35 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Cismet wrote:


You now have 20 pages and growing of forum thread effectively screaming that you're wrong on this matter


Lol.

You need to learn to count mate. Everyone is supporting the bans. There is exactly 10 trolls that got #rekt and are posting pages and pages of tears about it, but quantity does NOT equal quality.

^This. Additionally, they should ban all the well known doxxers, because that **** is just plain creepy. If anything, the bans don't go far enough.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#508 - 2014-09-11 23:13:39 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

So don't scam or gank, as these aren't acts of human decency.

CCP Falcon wrote:
The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment.

Really? That's cute, because a good portion of your community believes that scamming and ganking constitute harassment.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mira Robinson
#509 - 2014-09-11 23:14:24 UTC
Cismet wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Cismet wrote:


You now have 20 pages and growing of forum thread effectively screaming that you're wrong on this matter


Lol.

You need to learn to count mate. Everyone is supporting the bans. There is exactly 10 trolls that got #rekt and are posting pages and pages of tears about it, but quantity does NOT equal quality.


You can neither support or decry the bans, as noone has any idea why anyone has been banned aside from the vaguest notion that it was something to do with harassment and RL was involved in some way shape and form.

There are a few people saying the bans are right, there are a few saying the bans are wrong. The majority of the posts on the matter are about CCP being transparent as to the reason for the bans and actually defining what is considered unacceptable in a game where almost everything is permitted. CCP allow actions that are defined as griefing and harassment almost universally but refuse to define what they consider too far. This is unacceptable. If it were as simple as just saying act with human decency, then fine. But under those circumstances there would be little scamming (theft is not in line with human decency), no ganking, no "carebear tear harvests", because that's bullying and is against public decency, no awoxing, no shiny ship hunting..... all of these actions could easily be considered harassment. The issue is that CCP allows harassment. They encourage harassment because they want Eve to be gritty and harsh and unforgiving. What the majority are stating is that they need to define when harassment is too far.

Noone is claiming they don't have the right to issue bans, few people are claiming they were right or wrong, they just want to know where the line is so they don't cross it. Yes a few people will push their luck, but in a game where harassment is legal and even encouraged, you can't then turn around and state human decency and "you know when it's too far" because people don't. I'm not on the other end of the keyboard with the other person, I don't know what they're doing. If I kill their 10 billion ISK shiny fit, odds are they're going to be going mental and really upset, but that's not enough for a ban? Well what is, that's the whole issue for me, and many others. It's not about the tears of any one group (a form of harassment again that's totally allowed and encouraged) but about transparency in a world that's supposed to be on the edge.

If they're upset, maybe you, oh I don't know, don't screencap tears to post on a blog. Don't invite them to TeamSpeak to collect audio tears.

But then how would they get hits on their ganking blogs.

So many people view carebears as an inferior race in this game, thinking they can do whatever they want. Clearly they cannot.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#510 - 2014-09-11 23:14:38 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#511 - 2014-09-11 23:18:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

CCP Falcon wrote:
The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment.

Really? That's cute, because a good portion of your community believes that scamming and ganking constitute harassment.

Doesn't matter what they believe; what matters is what CCP believes. It's always been that way.

CCP has made it very clear that ganking and scamming for isk are ok. Everything beyond that, you do at your own risk. Use common sense.
Helene Fidard
CTRL-Q
#512 - 2014-09-11 23:24:29 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
^This. Additionally, they should ban all the well known doxxers, because that **** is just plain creepy. If anything, the bans don't go far enough.

If CCP wants to start handing out liberal bans for that sort of behaviour, while at the same time clearly explaining why the ban occured and which behaviour is not allowed, well… I'd certainly be cheering them on.

Mira Robinson wrote:
If they're upset, maybe you, oh I don't know, don't screencap tears to post on a blog.

Have people been banned for doing that? Is that not allowed?

Hey! I don't know about you

but I'm joining CTRL-Q
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#513 - 2014-09-11 23:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cismet
Mira Robinson wrote:

If they're upset, maybe you, oh I don't know, don't screencap tears to post on a blog. Don't invite them to TeamSpeak to collect audio tears.

But then how would they get hits on their ganking blogs.

So many people view carebears as an inferior race in this game, thinking they can do whatever they want. Clearly they cannot.


You have missed the point. The act of ganking itself is enough to be considered harassment by the definition of the word. I'm not suggesting that it's right or wrong to do it. Ganking is considered an acceptable part of the game. Insulting in comms is apparently acceptable. HTFU is an unofficial motto of the game with CCP employees in a music video of the same. I'm not here to argue for or against gankers or their victims. I refuse to use the insulting term bandied about for people who decline to engage in piracy and prefer to live in high security space. If you check my profile you'll see that I'm only recently venturing into low myself, now that I have some capital and ships I can replace. None of that is relevant. This is the point:

1: The game mechanics and rules permit and encourage harassment.
2: Apparently some form of harassment was considered too far, but we don't know what this is as CCP expect that people should know what constitutes "unreasonable" harassment in a game where point 1 is true.

Given these two things, it is unreasonable for CCP to state that the players should know what is unreasonable by the definition of harassment and human decency. Half of the acts in the game run counter to those two things.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#514 - 2014-09-11 23:30:18 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

There is, but the problem here seems to be that you're banning people who weren't even involved in outright harassment at all. Permanently. No realistic chance of appeal. It's absurd.

.


How do you know those player were not involved in either the case everyone seem to think this ban wave is related to or any other less publicly known case? Are we supposed to believe their version because :reasons:?

Are we supposed to believe CCP because reasons?


You pretty much have to yes. CCP basically press back the player getting banned in a corner for 2 reasons. 1- CCP keep to them-self the right to not discuss any disciplinary action taken on other player. 2- Even if the presumed offending player want to prove CCP's version is incorrect, they can't really do it without breaking other rules which can result in a ban because you can't share communication between you and CCP. One could argue that the system is broken because of that but CCP enver said their justice system was up for discussion. They always said they would handle disciplinary action based on their own judgement and no one else. I am not saying they are right or wrong but they are doing what THEY think is the best course of action. We can all cheer, whine, cry, celebrate or pray over it but in the end, our opinion as player means nothing in decision like that.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#515 - 2014-09-12 00:09:33 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

31. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.

CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, “outing” of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#516 - 2014-09-12 00:15:34 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

CCP Falcon wrote:
The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment.

Really? That's cute, because a good portion of your community believes that scamming and ganking constitute harassment.

Doesn't matter what they believe; what matters is what CCP believes. It's always been that way.

CCP has made it very clear that ganking and scamming for isk are ok.

So is ganking for fun not okay?
What about holding people for ransom?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pepper Swift
Perkone
Caldari State
#517 - 2014-09-12 00:20:25 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Helene Fidard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him. You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him. If he gets mad, do the smart thing and ignore him. There is no need to further rile people up for tear harvesting purposes. Be the better man and move on with the game.


So what you're saying is that there is a group of self-selected Honourable Space Folk to whom rules do apply, and another group of people in pods who can do or say whatever they like.


What I'm saying is to realize that when you have just vaporized weeks or months of a person's effort to appreciate that may be unhappy or angry, and may verbally abuse you, and to just ignore them and move on. Definitely don't add more fuel to the fire and relish in their "tears."


Q F T.

and as my previous post got booped.

I think these bans were warranted.

The TOS and rules were made slightly ambiguous to allow CCP to judge them on a case by case basis. Trying to make a full complete list of bannable offences is a difficult exercise as creative players would always think of something new.

What I need most.. is a day between Saturday and Sunday...

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#518 - 2014-09-12 00:20:35 UTC
Or, how about this:

is doxxing okay? Can I go ahead and dox you? CCP seems to be okay with it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lady Areola Fappington
#519 - 2014-09-12 00:20:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No.

Their verbal abuse is not any more acceptable than verbal abuse in general. Just because you blew up their ship does not give them the right to spew real life threats, racism, etc.



Pretty much this is the reason why I have no interaction in-game with people I blow up. No smack talk, no gloating, no demands to buy a permit. I just blow them up silently, coz I know that's still within game rules.

When the gankee busts out with the verbal abuse, I just report it and move on.

I'm pretty sure that's not exactly the style of community CCP wants, but hey, I'm still playing EVE right now, so it must be working.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#520 - 2014-09-12 00:22:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So is ganking for fun not okay?
What about holding people for ransom?

If you really want to be that obtuse then I'll tell you what to do. Petition for an answer and then come back and tell us what you find out.

I'm sure that once they're done rolling on the floor, they'll answer it pretty quick.

Mr Epeen Cool