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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#481 - 2014-09-11 22:43:21 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
If you don't want to get banned you have some very simple solutions. Stop making the focus of your gameplay hurting/angering/humiliating others. Tear collection is not a legitimate objective in Eve. Focus on accomplishing things that help you, not on accomplishing things that hurt others. Now, if in the process of helping yourself and you suicide gank or scam someone, and they get angry, that is fine. Just take your win and move on. Don't look to revel in the moment, collect tears, mock them, try to get them on coms, etc.... Just take your winning, give a GF and go. If the focus of your game is to see how mad you can make other people get, and what kind of reactions you can elicit, then yes, you are doing it wrong, and potentially could get banned. If you just focus on helping yourself, and don't engage with people you are harming, then no, you are not really at risk of a ban. To me that is a clear enough line already.
So a ship is blown up. And the person who goes into a racist sexist homophobic etc rant and threatens to track people down, we keep him. But the guy having a laugh at this gross overreaction, he gets banned.

That's a nice community you're building there.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#482 - 2014-09-11 22:43:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

There is, but the problem here seems to be that you're banning people who weren't even involved in outright harassment at all. Permanently. No realistic chance of appeal. It's absurd.

.


How do you know those player were not involved in either the case everyone seem to think this ban wave is related to or any other less publicly known case? Are we supposed to believe their version because :reasons:?

Are we supposed to believe CCP because reasons?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mira Robinson
#483 - 2014-09-11 22:44:10 UTC
IIshira wrote:

What you have is a bunch of carebears so happy to see CCP banning gankers. They're not worried about asking CCP what's can get you banned because they don't do anything other than PVE.

It's all good though. I'm actually going to dedicate another one of my pilots to ganking. I'll do my part to make sure Eve stays a PVP focused game. If I get banned for this then it wasn't a game I wanted to play anyway.

You make it sound so incredulous.

Gankers take joy in carebear tears, so carebears take joy in ganker tears.

Makes sense to me. I'm just hear for the drama. Third party ISP issues (which CCP cannot or will not address) have kept me from logging in for weeks, so I'm just gleefully looking at the drama until my PLEX runs out.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Mira Robinson
#484 - 2014-09-11 22:45:09 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
If you don't want to get banned you have some very simple solutions. Stop making the focus of your gameplay hurting/angering/humiliating others. Tear collection is not a legitimate objective in Eve. Focus on accomplishing things that help you, not on accomplishing things that hurt others. Now, if in the process of helping yourself and you suicide gank or scam someone, and they get angry, that is fine. Just take your win and move on. Don't look to revel in the moment, collect tears, mock them, try to get them on coms, etc.... Just take your winning, give a GF and go. If the focus of your game is to see how mad you can make other people get, and what kind of reactions you can elicit, then yes, you are doing it wrong, and potentially could get banned. If you just focus on helping yourself, and don't engage with people you are harming, then no, you are not really at risk of a ban. To me that is a clear enough line already.
So a ship is blown up. And the person who goes into a racist sexist homophobic etc rant and threatens to track people down, we keep him. But the guy having a laugh at this gross overreaction, he gets banned.

That's a nice community you're building there.

You just made me spit out my drink.

Because you were saying the Eve community was nice to begin with.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#485 - 2014-09-11 22:45:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
If you don't want to get banned you have some very simple solutions. Stop making the focus of your gameplay hurting/angering/humiliating others. Tear collection is not a legitimate objective in Eve. Focus on accomplishing things that help you, not on accomplishing things that hurt others. Now, if in the process of helping yourself and you suicide gank or scam someone, and they get angry, that is fine. Just take your win and move on. Don't look to revel in the moment, collect tears, mock them, try to get them on coms, etc.... Just take your winning, give a GF and go. If the focus of your game is to see how mad you can make other people get, and what kind of reactions you can elicit, then yes, you are doing it wrong, and potentially could get banned. If you just focus on helping yourself, and don't engage with people you are harming, then no, you are not really at risk of a ban. To me that is a clear enough line already.


Eloquently put.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Maybe we should stop suicide ganking, scamming, and stealing if we want to be safe, then. Since if being incidentally connected to a harassment case is cause for a permanent ban, then obviously causing distress to another player of any kind is also grounds for a ban. Clearly we shouldn't do anything that has the potential to make someone upset.


Nice slippery slope fallacy! Loving this rhetoric try and warp some ramblings of construed logic to present a grounding to their point.

IIshira wrote:

What you have is a bunch of carebears so happy to see CCP banning gankers. They're not worried about asking CCP what's can get you banned because they don't do anything other than PVE.

It's all good though. I'm actually going to dedicate another one of my pilots to ganking. I'll do my part to make sure Eve stays a PVP focused game. If I get banned for this then it wasn't a game I wanted to play anyway.


Yes, that's clearly what has been said. We could prevent crows all over America with the amount of strawman in this thread.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#486 - 2014-09-11 22:46:09 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Maybe we should stop suicide ganking, scamming, and stealing if we want to be safe, then. Since if being incidentally connected to a harassment case is cause for a permanent ban, then obviously causing distress to another player of any kind is also grounds for a ban. Clearly we shouldn't do anything that has the potential to make someone upset.


Well personally I think some of the scams should go, especially the margin trading scams that look legit on the eve market and ensnare new players. Regardless, there is a big difference between doing activities that help your bottom line and also hurt people, to doing activities that don't help your bottom line and are solely done to hurt/anger people. Especially when you subsequently try to rile up their anger even further, and then brag about it. Just stick to sucide ganking/scamming/stealing, skip the tear collection, and you should be fine. Easy peezy.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#487 - 2014-09-11 22:46:51 UTC
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#488 - 2014-09-11 22:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cismet
CCP Falcon wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Of course, it is easier to whine about the 'grey areas' then to actually help CCP remove them.


It also seems that it's very easy to whine about being banned rather than using a shred of common sense to maintain the most basic level of decency and etiquette when interacting with people in EVE.

Yes, EVE is designed to be harsh and unforgiving, but there's a blatant difference between that and outright harassment.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. those people who're saying that the lines are blurred and they don't understand the definition of harassment are looking for clarification so that they know how much they can bend the rules and push the boundaries before we'll take action, with a view to using any statement we make as ammunition for an appeal should they fall foul of the rules and be slapped with account action.

Sorry, but my original statement still stands. CCP will use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of EVE Online.


Evidently the message that your community are trying to explain to you isn't quite getting through. The lines ARE blurred because you (by you I mean CCP) designed the game to be harsh and unforgiving. A lot of the actions that make the game harsh and unforgiving are griefing or harassment by definition.

You seem to want to believe that your customers lack the understanding of the meaning of the word harassment. They don't; the problem is that CCP allows and encourages harassment: War Dec Griefing, Suicide Gankers targeting the same person over and over, the entire campaigns against miners. These are examples of harassment, I would print the definition, but I refuse to descend to quoting the dictionary. These acts would be unacceptable in any other MMO/Video Game community, YOU allow them. The blurred line isn't what the definition of harassment is. The blurred line is what YOU consider to be harassment and would therefore punish. People are quoting things like actions that people would consider unacceptable to a stranger.
Okay, I personally would consider it unacceptable for someone to turn up, destroy my property, steal my stuff and insult me and that such goes against human decency. By that logic you should be banning almost your entire player base.

You cannot on the one hand say that it's fine to be harsh and victimise someone in game, but then arbitrarily declare that someone has gone too far, but at the same time not say in what way they went too far. The people you have banned may well have deserved such, but I don't know because you haven't said what actions led to the banning.

You now have 20 pages and growing of forum thread effectively screaming that you're wrong on this matter, but you refuse to listen and instead passive-aggressively state that we should know what you're talking about and just be decent in a game designed to be the opposite of decent. My respect for you as a company is rapidly dropping through the floor. Congratulations.

Edit: In the time it took me to write this, another 5 pages cropped up.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#489 - 2014-09-11 22:47:28 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
If you don't want to get banned you have some very simple solutions. Stop making the focus of your gameplay hurting/angering/humiliating others. Tear collection is not a legitimate objective in Eve. Focus on accomplishing things that help you, not on accomplishing things that hurt others. Now, if in the process of helping yourself and you suicide gank or scam someone, and they get angry, that is fine. Just take your win and move on. Don't look to revel in the moment, collect tears, mock them, try to get them on coms, etc.... Just take your winning, give a GF and go. If the focus of your game is to see how mad you can make other people get, and what kind of reactions you can elicit, then yes, you are doing it wrong, and potentially could get banned. If you just focus on helping yourself, and don't engage with people you are harming, then no, you are not really at risk of a ban. To me that is a clear enough line already.
So a ship is blown up. And the person who goes into a racist sexist homophobic etc rant and threatens to track people down, we keep him. But the guy having a laugh at this gross overreaction, he gets banned.

That's a nice community you're building there.


Just block him. You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him. If he gets mad, do the smart thing and ignore him. There is no need to further rile people up for tear harvesting purposes. Be the better man and move on with the game.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#490 - 2014-09-11 22:47:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Are we supposed to believe CCP because reasons?


Yes.

That's way it's been for 11+ years. It's almost time to stop whining about it, don't you think?

Mr Epeen Cool
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#491 - 2014-09-11 22:48:28 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
IIshira wrote:

What you have is a bunch of carebears so happy to see CCP banning gankers. They're not worried about asking CCP what's can get you banned because they don't do anything other than PVE.

It's all good though. I'm actually going to dedicate another one of my pilots to ganking. I'll do my part to make sure Eve stays a PVP focused game. If I get banned for this then it wasn't a game I wanted to play anyway.

You make it sound so incredulous.

Gankers take joy in carebear tears, so carebears take joy in ganker tears.

Makes sense to me. I'm just hear for the drama. Third party ISP issues (which CCP cannot or will not address) have kept me from logging in for weeks, so I'm just gleefully looking at the drama until my PLEX runs out.


I agree. I just think tears shouldn't be from bans on either side. Make them miserable in game.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#492 - 2014-09-11 22:50:12 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
If you don't want to get banned you have some very simple solutions. Stop making the focus of your gameplay hurting/angering/humiliating others. Tear collection is not a legitimate objective in Eve. Focus on accomplishing things that help you, not on accomplishing things that hurt others. Now, if in the process of helping yourself and you suicide gank or scam someone, and they get angry, that is fine. Just take your win and move on. Don't look to revel in the moment, collect tears, mock them, try to get them on coms, etc.... Just take your winning, give a GF and go. If the focus of your game is to see how mad you can make other people get, and what kind of reactions you can elicit, then yes, you are doing it wrong, and potentially could get banned. If you just focus on helping yourself, and don't engage with people you are harming, then no, you are not really at risk of a ban. To me that is a clear enough line already.
So a ship is blown up. And the person who goes into a racist sexist homophobic etc rant and threatens to track people down, we keep him. But the guy having a laugh at this gross overreaction, he gets banned.

That's a nice community you're building there.


Just block him. You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him. If he gets mad, do the smart thing and ignore him. There is no need to further rile people up for tear harvesting purposes. Be the better man and move on with the game.


Just block him Veers? So the victim of a gank can't do this but the ganker should?
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#493 - 2014-09-11 22:51:43 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him.
You are somewhat missing the point. Of course we can just block him. But if the response to a player harassing you is to ignore and block him, why doesn't it go both ways?

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#494 - 2014-09-11 22:52:07 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Are we supposed to believe CCP because reasons?


Yes.

No.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Helene Fidard
CTRL-Q
#495 - 2014-09-11 22:52:48 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him. You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him. If he gets mad, do the smart thing and ignore him. There is no need to further rile people up for tear harvesting purposes. Be the better man and move on with the game.


So what you're saying is that there is a group of self-selected Honourable Space Folk to whom rules do apply, and another group of people in pods who can do or say whatever they like.

Hey! I don't know about you

but I'm joining CTRL-Q
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#496 - 2014-09-11 22:53:29 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him.
You are somewhat missing the point. Of course we can just block him. But if the response to a player harassing you is to ignore and block him, why doesn't it go both ways?


Because you initiated the harm. You took an action that cost a player his ship, money, etc... and is likely to leave him in an emotionally pained state. Appreciating that, and acting accordingly, is the key to showing that you are not looking to harvest tears or take pleasure in the pain of another, but just to play the game for your own benefit. And I think that clearly avoids any possibility of a ban.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#497 - 2014-09-11 22:53:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Are we supposed to believe CCP because reasons?


Yes.

No.

Maybe.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#498 - 2014-09-11 22:54:54 UTC
Helene Fidard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him. You know someone is going to be upset after you harm him. If he gets mad, do the smart thing and ignore him. There is no need to further rile people up for tear harvesting purposes. Be the better man and move on with the game.


So what you're saying is that there is a group of self-selected Honourable Space Folk to whom rules do apply, and another group of people in pods who can do or say whatever they like.


What I'm saying is to realize that when you have just vaporized weeks or months of a person's effort to appreciate that may be unhappy or angry, and may verbally abuse you, and to just ignore them and move on. Definitely don't add more fuel to the fire and relish in their "tears."
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#499 - 2014-09-11 22:55:18 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
If you don't want to get banned you have some very simple solutions. Stop making the focus of your gameplay hurting/angering/humiliating others. Tear collection is not a legitimate objective in Eve. Focus on accomplishing things that help you, not on accomplishing things that hurt others. Now, if in the process of helping yourself and you suicide gank or scam someone, and they get angry, that is fine. Just take your win and move on. Don't look to revel in the moment, collect tears, mock them, try to get them on coms, etc.... Just take your winning, give a GF and go. If the focus of your game is to see how mad you can make other people get, and what kind of reactions you can elicit, then yes, you are doing it wrong, and potentially could get banned. If you just focus on helping yourself, and don't engage with people you are harming, then no, you are not really at risk of a ban. To me that is a clear enough line already.

Well said.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#500 - 2014-09-11 22:56:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Because you initiated the harm. You took an action that cost a player his ship, money, etc... and is likely to leave him in an emotionally pained state
THANK YOU

HERE WE GO

FINALLY

We have brought in the in-game actions which have for over a decade now been accepted as part of EVE and which Falcon himself was defending in the last week or two, and made them the initial part of the harassment which can get you banned.

What is/should be the difference between a guy who gets banned and a guy who doesn't when both are being assholes? One of them shot at a spaceship in a spaceship shooting game, and the other didn't.

A vision of EVE's future, right here. What a wonderful note to end the night on.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment