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Dodging Wardecs

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Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#561 - 2014-09-11 21:44:11 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Wyn Pharoh wrote:




How 'UN Eve-like' is the functional reality of 'Shell' Corporations? Seriously.

They seem to exist in Eve, much like in real life, in significant numbers with similar features. How hard, irl, is it to 'pin down' a shell corporation? Usually, its largely impossible, since there are little to no tangible assets that have to be 'moved' when a shell corporation folds. They collapse under the slightest scrutiny into vapor, only to reappear again with a new name and logo, in little to no time at all. Some are one man ops while others are fronts for vast corporate wealth and holdings. Does this sound at all familiar? How is this anything but VERY Eve-like?

Welcome to the structured sandbox that is PvP in HiSec. Is it now CCP's responsibility to differentiate 'shell' corps from 'brick and mortar' corporations? How is this NOT a problem of target selection? How is this different from trying to blap frigates with dreds? If the corp is mobile and intangible enough to slip through your wardec with no more effort than disband/reform, why exactly is this a CCP problem? If Bobcorp exists with a solo player who's only corp 'asset' is NPC corp tax evasion, then it stands to reason that Bobcorp will be a poor wartarget choice.

I know, from probably EVERY POV that wardec mechanics are horribly flawed. What I do see here though is a specific 'mechanic' that in being 'solved' would greatly serve only one particular purpose, i.e. the farming of solo incursion/mission runners. Should their HiSec lifestyle be consequence free? NO!!! Then again, it already isn't. Ganks of bling fit ships should and do happen. Why exactly though is this a wardec 'problem'? It all seems to me to be a sandbox, sorting itself out, with one group taking advantage of corporate 'liquidity' in a way the we see every day irl.

Perhaps in a major wardec overhaul, making a dec more 'sticky' wouldn't be a bad feature, but we are talking about Eve and Eve players - a collective group of players that WILL find a way to manipulate every set of rules to suit their own needs. New and even more creative Shell Corp 'solutions' WILL be found and 'abused' no matter what CCP does to cure the current 'problem' of today.


I'll repeat something I said a few pages back:. Lots of folks here still seem to be missing my premise of wardeccing for a few hundred mill in "tribute." It's not about risk, it's not about wanting easy targets to shoot at, it's about inconveniencing a small group of people to the point that it's less of a headache just to pay out 200m or300m. Some will corp-hop, but some will not. As I said earlier, you throw enough crap at the wall, and some of it will stick. This makes probably the 6th or 7th time I've explained this.




What if they/he/she can't pay?

What's your next course of action?


Good question. I would accept a "down payment" of at least a portion of the payoff. I would then allow them to go about their business freely for a few days, whatever seemed like a reasonable amount of time to come up with the rest. If they havent paid up by the time the dec ends, they get decced again, and now they have to also pay for the additional wardec.


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#562 - 2014-09-11 21:55:59 UTC
Well iirc they changed it awhile back, to make it easier to dodge war-decs.

So my guess is they would rather have people playing than sitting in stations or playing something else for the duration of the war-dec.
Trixie Lawless
State War Academy
Caldari State
#563 - 2014-09-11 21:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Trixie Lawless
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Wyn Pharoh wrote:




How 'UN Eve-like' is the functional reality of 'Shell' Corporations? Seriously.

They seem to exist in Eve, much like in real life, in significant numbers with similar features. How hard, irl, is it to 'pin down' a shell corporation? Usually, its largely impossible, since there are little to no tangible assets that have to be 'moved' when a shell corporation folds. They collapse under the slightest scrutiny into vapor, only to reappear again with a new name and logo, in little to no time at all. Some are one man ops while others are fronts for vast corporate wealth and holdings. Does this sound at all familiar? How is this anything but VERY Eve-like?

Welcome to the structured sandbox that is PvP in HiSec. Is it now CCP's responsibility to differentiate 'shell' corps from 'brick and mortar' corporations? How is this NOT a problem of target selection? How is this different from trying to blap frigates with dreds? If the corp is mobile and intangible enough to slip through your wardec with no more effort than disband/reform, why exactly is this a CCP problem? If Bobcorp exists with a solo player who's only corp 'asset' is NPC corp tax evasion, then it stands to reason that Bobcorp will be a poor wartarget choice.

I know, from probably EVERY POV that wardec mechanics are horribly flawed. What I do see here though is a specific 'mechanic' that in being 'solved' would greatly serve only one particular purpose, i.e. the farming of solo incursion/mission runners. Should their HiSec lifestyle be consequence free? NO!!! Then again, it already isn't. Ganks of bling fit ships should and do happen. Why exactly though is this a wardec 'problem'? It all seems to me to be a sandbox, sorting itself out, with one group taking advantage of corporate 'liquidity' in a way the we see every day irl.

Perhaps in a major wardec overhaul, making a dec more 'sticky' wouldn't be a bad feature, but we are talking about Eve and Eve players - a collective group of players that WILL find a way to manipulate every set of rules to suit their own needs. New and even more creative Shell Corp 'solutions' WILL be found and 'abused' no matter what CCP does to cure the current 'problem' of today.


I'll repeat something I said a few pages back:. Lots of folks here still seem to be missing my premise of wardeccing for a few hundred mill in "tribute." It's not about risk, it's not about wanting easy targets to shoot at, it's about inconveniencing a small group of people to the point that it's less of a headache just to pay out 200m or300m. Some will corp-hop, but some will not. As I said earlier, you throw enough crap at the wall, and some of it will stick. This makes probably the 6th or 7th time I've explained this.




What if they/he/she can't pay?

What's your next course of action?


Good question. I would accept a "down payment" of at least a portion of the payoff. I would then allow them to go about their business freely for a few days, whatever seemed like a reasonable amount of time to come up with the rest. If they havent paid up by the time the dec ends, they get decced again, and now they have to also pay for the additional wardec.





No. That's an absolute terrible idea. CCP has industry as a profession on purpose. They see it as a valid form of gameplay. You know what's going to happen to the industry folks if they are constantly hounded by others? They are going to leave. That's not doom and gloom eve is dying nonsense...that's common sense. These people are in hi sec for a reason. No they should not be impervious to danger, they also shouldn't be forced to partake in an activity (your extortion there) simply because the other player can click a button and has 50 mil isk to spend. If it was me...I'd quit. I know TONS of others who would say dueces too. Call me whatever you want, but it comes down enjoyment vs no enjoyment. I'm not going to spend 15 a month to not enjoy myself because I choose a path that the game promotes as perfectly viable.

Yeah...its a PvP game, but that excuse only goes so far. Screw the industrial side over too much or dislike their play style too much and you might as well petition CCP to turn this into Call of Duty in Space. Just give everyone a ship and let them blow each other up.

Also...there is lore and back story to this game, and hi sec is empire space. What you suggest would eventually be considered crime. Sounds fun...but take it to one of the other two areas already formed for that kind of stuff. Low sec or null.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#564 - 2014-09-11 22:07:08 UTC
(Trixie I didnt quote because Idk if there's a limit to how big a post can be)

I see what youre saying, but I dont think it would be that bad, or that CCP wouldnt support it. Ponder, if you will, Crius and the fallout from it. Builders in nullsec can now refine and produce better than their counterparts in hisec. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth at these changes. I'd love to see the numbers on how many people actually quit over the changes. Then there are folks like Dinsdale who claim that CCP has been at war with hisec for ages now, yet you see he hasn't gone anywhere either.

In any event, there may well be some people who would quit, but thats true of any change in the game; you cant make everyone happy. However, I think the buff to nullsec and nerf to hisec industry in Crius is indicative of CCP's position on how "good" hisec should be. Just my guess though, I have no idea what CCP thinks.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2014-09-11 22:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyn Pharoh
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:

I'll repeat something I said a few pages back:. Lots of folks here still seem to be missing my premise of wardeccing for a few hundred mill in "tribute." It's not about risk, it's not about wanting easy targets to shoot at, it's about inconveniencing a small group of people to the point that it's less of a headache just to pay out 200m or300m. Some will corp-hop, but some will not. As I said earlier, you throw enough crap at the wall, and some of it will stick. This makes probably the 6th or 7th time I've explained this.


I'm not missing your point at all. It is a fine and ANCIENT usage of the wardec mechanic. Extortion is fine and good and all and if you actually hit something that isn't vapor, then it may be payday. Just don't expect me to co-sign the BS that would have your gameplay trump someone else figuring out how to beat your extortion racket with their equally shady (and very Eve-like) corporate structure. I mean we are still talking about an ingame system where player corps 'bribe' the space cops to look the other way when we decide that there is someone in 'high security space' that needs to be shot at, right?

If CCP were to make some expansion that targeted NPC tax dodging, I'd probably fail to object, just for the tears and lols alone, but tbh, that sounds a bit farfetched and maybe this game has a few other broken issues to deal with first.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#566 - 2014-09-11 22:10:18 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#567 - 2014-09-11 22:16:49 UTC
Celly S wrote:

"if a player doesn't want to fight, or pay, they will find a way within the game's mechanics to not do it"


Then they belong in an NPC corp, paying 20% taxes.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Trixie Lawless
State War Academy
Caldari State
#568 - 2014-09-11 22:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Trixie Lawless
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
(Trixie I didnt quote because Idk if there's a limit to how big a post can be)

I see what youre saying, but I dont think it would be that bad, or that CCP wouldnt support it. Ponder, if you will, Crius and the fallout from it. Builders in nullsec can now refine and produce better than their counterparts in hisec. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth at these changes. I'd love to see the numbers on how many people actually quit over the changes. Then there are folks like Dinsdale who claim that CCP has been at war with hisec for ages now, yet you see he hasn't gone anywhere either.

In any event, there may well be some people who would quit, but thats true of any change in the game; you cant make everyone happy. However, I think the buff to nullsec and nerf to hisec industry in Crius is indicative of CCP's position on how "good" hisec should be. Just my guess though, I have no idea what CCP thinks.



True, some people quit over petty things, but what you are proposing is basically lawlessness in space with law. Lol going to war doesnt mean extorting people...it means going to war.

My old toon was a hi sec industrial toon (until I got so bored I quit the account), and I was in a corp that got the blanket war DEC. I was a noon so took my ceo's advice and bailed, like the other 4 people in the corp. Looked at the active in wars the aggressor had....58....almist all of them small industrial corps based in 0.7-0.8 space. How is that not exploiting a mechanic to turn hi sec into null?

If that isn't exploitation....then neither is dodging. Because that wouldn't have been PvP, it would have been a newb slaughter. And 58 corps cannot come together in 24 to mount a defense...that's not going to happen. Lol

I see it just like I see the ganking thing. The ganked cry and ask for game chamges because they did not make a good decision and want CCP to make it easier for them. If people are mad they waisted isk, then ask CCP to consider a game mechanic as an exploit...then you are the exact same way the ganked person was. So....STFU and learn to read corp details? (S = Smarten)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#569 - 2014-09-11 22:19:37 UTC
Complaining about players skipping corps to avoid wardecs in hisec is a waste of time. You could change the rules so that nobody is ever allowed to leave corps that are wardecced, and what would happen then? People would just start playing the other two characters on their account.

Wardec corps with POSes. Then you have more chance of them actually sticking around. Well, what is most likely to happen is they'll pull down the POS and log off for the duration. Mission accomplished, the POS is no longer an economic entity competing with you in a specific market.

In the end, you're the one looking for "meaningful PvP" in hi sec. Just keep wardeccing until you find someone willing to fight.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#570 - 2014-09-11 22:20:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Celly S wrote:

"if a player doesn't want to fight, or pay, they will find a way within the game's mechanics to not do it"


Then they belong in an NPC corp, paying 20% taxes.


Or out in null as part of a blue doughnut that owns half the map.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#571 - 2014-09-11 22:21:35 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:

I'll repeat something I said a few pages back:. Lots of folks here still seem to be missing my premise of wardeccing for a few hundred mill in "tribute." It's not about risk, it's not about wanting easy targets to shoot at, it's about inconveniencing a small group of people to the point that it's less of a headache just to pay out 200m or300m. Some will corp-hop, but some will not. As I said earlier, you throw enough crap at the wall, and some of it will stick. This makes probably the 6th or 7th time I've explained this.


I'm not missing your point at all. It is a fine and ANCIENT usage of the wardec mechanic. Extortion is fine and good and all and if you actually hit something that isn't vapor, then it may be payday. Just don't expect me to co-sign the BS that would have your gameplay trump someone else figuring out how to beat your extortion racket with their equally shady (and very Eve-like) corporate structure. I mean we are still talking about an ingame system where player corps 'bribe' the space cops to look the other way when we decide that there is someone in 'high security space' that needs to be shot at, right?

If CCP were to make some expansion that targeted NPC tax dodging, I'd probably fail to object, just for the tears and lols alone, but tbh, that sounds a bit farfetched and maybe this game has a few other broken issues to deal with first.



Actually, I disagree with extortion being fine. I certainly wouldn't pay it, if the game got to a point where you couldn't play without paying some group to allow you to play the answer is simple don't play the game. I wouldn't pay in RL if someone tried extortion let alone a game.

Where's peoples self respect these days?
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#572 - 2014-09-11 22:25:12 UTC
Trixie Lawless wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
(Trixie I didnt quote because Idk if there's a limit to how big a post can be)

I see what youre saying, but I dont think it would be that bad, or that CCP wouldnt support it. Ponder, if you will, Crius and the fallout from it. Builders in nullsec can now refine and produce better than their counterparts in hisec. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth at these changes. I'd love to see the numbers on how many people actually quit over the changes. Then there are folks like Dinsdale who claim that CCP has been at war with hisec for ages now, yet you see he hasn't gone anywhere either.

In any event, there may well be some people who would quit, but thats true of any change in the game; you cant make everyone happy. However, I think the buff to nullsec and nerf to hisec industry in Crius is indicative of CCP's position on how "good" hisec should be. Just my guess though, I have no idea what CCP thinks.



True, some people quit over petty things, but what you are proposing is basically lawlessness in space with law. Lol going to war doesnt mean extorting people...it means going to war.

My old toon was a hi sec industrial toon (until I got so bored I quit the account), and I was in a corp that got the blanket war DEC. I was a noon so took my ceo's advice and bailed, like the other 4 people in the corp. Looked at the active in wars the aggressor had....58....almist all of them small industrial corps based in 0.7-0.8 space. How is that not exploiting a mechanic to turn hi sec into null?

If that isn't exploitation....then neither is dodging. Because that wouldn't have been PvP, it would have been a newb slaughter. And 58 corps cannot come together in 24 to mount a defense...that's not going to happen. Lol


I believe my opinion has changed slightly on this matter. Deccing 58 corps at a time does seem a tad much. I would support there being a limit to how many active wars a corp/alliance can initiate at one time.

The Marmite tears would be delicious. Cool

Quote:
I see it just like I see the ganking thing. The ganked cry and ask for game chamges because they did not make a good decision and want CCP to make it easier for them. If people are mad they waisted isk, then ask CCP to consider a game mechanic as an exploit...then you are the exact same way the ganked person was. So....STFU and learn to read corp details? (S = Smarten)


Not sure I fully understand what you mean.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Trixie Lawless
State War Academy
Caldari State
#573 - 2014-09-11 22:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Trixie Lawless
What I mean is that sometimes when a newb gets ganked they run to the forums and ask for game mechanics to be changed so they don't get tanked as easy (think of people who whine about CODE). People who want CCP to make it easier for them to wardec a gazillion corps without the corp folding up shop are the same way as the banked newb. There were mechanics already in place and you made a bad decision.

And yeah...super high wardecs like that happen alot. I think that's what this is about more than 1 corp run ing from 1 other corp.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#574 - 2014-09-11 22:31:42 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


In the end, you're the one looking for "meaningful PvP" in hi sec. Just keep wardeccing until you find someone willing to fight.



No Im not. Maybe youve missed me saying this a few times, but a wardec for the purposes of extortion is NOT "looking for meaningful PVP in hisec." It's far less hassle if they don't fight at all. For the umpteenth time, it's about MONEY. It's not about being risk-adverse, it's not about wanting easy killmails, or anything of the sort. It's about being a pain in someone's arse to the point that they pay you to just go away. Put a different way, it's about bullying the little guy out of his milk money in lieu of beating him up.



\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#575 - 2014-09-11 22:36:16 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


In the end, you're the one looking for "meaningful PvP" in hi sec. Just keep wardeccing until you find someone willing to fight.



No Im not. Maybe youve missed me saying this a few times, but a wardec for the purposes of extortion is NOT "looking for meaningful PVP in hisec." It's far less hassle if they don't fight at all. For the umpteenth time, it's about MONEY. It's not about being risk-adverse, it's not about wanting easy killmails, or anything of the sort. It's about being a pain in someone's arse to the point that they pay you to just go away. Put a different way, it's about bullying the little guy out of his milk money in lieu of beating him up.






They would be better off just using their isk to hire a mercenary group to sort you out. But then of course you'll probably just use another character.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#576 - 2014-09-11 22:39:28 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
First, I was going to just troll this, because it has been discussed before and usually turns into a big flamewar anyway. Then, I was going to write a long list of things that could happen, but I just thought of something really simple. It was like an epiphany and for me, as epiphanies go, it was quite enlightening.

Folding a corp, closing it completely, could cost a measure of isk equal to the cost of deccing the corp. Creating a corp should be a commitment, especially if you're taking on a position of leadership. And if it's just a one-man corp, aside from the fact that there's no point wardeccing one dude to begin with, there's really no point to the corp itself either (testifying from a one-man corp myself - whatever, I do what I want).
Quoting Remiel's idea because it's the best one.

Any 'ad character' mechanic can be easily circumvented with alts.

But ISK is ISK no matter where it comes from: I pay 50m to dec you, you pay 100m if you want to dodge the wardec by closing/reforming your 1-man corp. Simple and effective.


On a side note, an even simpler way to find PVP is to get out of highsec and never go back. Blink

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#577 - 2014-09-11 22:43:10 UTC
Trixie Lawless wrote:
What I mean is that sometimes when a newb gets ganked they run to the forums and ask for game mechanics to be changed so they don't get tanked as easy (think of people who whine about CODE). People who want CCP to make it easier for them to wardec a gazillion corps without the corp folding up shop are the same way as the banked newb. There were mechanics already in place and you made a bad decision.

And yeah...super high wardecs like that happen alot. I think that's what this is about more than 1 corp run ing from 1 other corp.


Yeah, like I said I''d be fine with there being a limit to how many entities a corp/alliance could initiate a war against. As I think you are saying, it's stupid to blow isk on a ton of wardecs and then complain that you spent all that isk for nothing. I agree.

And just so everyone here understands something, neither I nor my corpmates have ever been involved in an extortion racket. We've talked it over a few times, and even done our due dilligence, meaning we've checked out a couple of corps, who their members are, where and during what TZ theyre active, etc. That's "doing it right," and Ive been arguing simply that it's a valid thing to do in this game.

Furthermore, since a couple of folks have tried to imply that I personally am just after easy kills and too chicken to goto low or null, I invite you to look at my rather poor killboard. You'll not find a single kill in hisec. I live in lowsec, and have lived in nullsec as well, as said perusal of my KB will bear out. Best to check facts before making ASSumptions Blink

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#578 - 2014-09-11 22:46:16 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
First, I was going to just troll this, because it has been discussed before and usually turns into a big flamewar anyway. Then, I was going to write a long list of things that could happen, but I just thought of something really simple. It was like an epiphany and for me, as epiphanies go, it was quite enlightening.

Folding a corp, closing it completely, could cost a measure of isk equal to the cost of deccing the corp. Creating a corp should be a commitment, especially if you're taking on a position of leadership. And if it's just a one-man corp, aside from the fact that there's no point wardeccing one dude to begin with, there's really no point to the corp itself either (testifying from a one-man corp myself - whatever, I do what I want).
Quoting Remiel's idea because it's the best one.

Any 'ad character' mechanic can be easily circumvented with alts.

But ISK is ISK no matter where it comes from: I pay 50m to dec you, you pay 100m if you want to dodge the wardec by closing/reforming your 1-man corp. Simple and effective.


On a side note, an even simpler way to find PVP is to get out of highsec and never go back. Blink


You can't stop people dodging war-decs no matter what you do. Better off just leaving it as it is.

Your last note makes much more sense.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#579 - 2014-09-11 22:47:00 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


In the end, you're the one looking for "meaningful PvP" in hi sec. Just keep wardeccing until you find someone willing to fight.



No Im not. Maybe youve missed me saying this a few times, but a wardec for the purposes of extortion is NOT "looking for meaningful PVP in hisec." It's far less hassle if they don't fight at all. For the umpteenth time, it's about MONEY. It's not about being risk-adverse, it's not about wanting easy killmails, or anything of the sort. It's about being a pain in someone's arse to the point that they pay you to just go away. Put a different way, it's about bullying the little guy out of his milk money in lieu of beating him up.






They would be better off just using their isk to hire a mercenary group to sort you out. But then of course you'll probably just use another character.


Naturally the "tribute" would be cheaper than hiring a merc corp. As for your ASSumtion that I would just hide behind a different character, here's how you can research if that's true or not: Look at the war histories of the corps Ive been in. Then go look at my killboard. You'll notice I have killed and been killed on the dates that said wars were active.

Open mouth, insert foot?


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#580 - 2014-09-11 22:48:10 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


In the end, you're the one looking for "meaningful PvP" in hi sec. Just keep wardeccing until you find someone willing to fight.



No Im not. Maybe youve missed me saying this a few times, but a wardec for the purposes of extortion is NOT "looking for meaningful PVP in hisec." It's far less hassle if they don't fight at all. For the umpteenth time, it's about MONEY. It's not about being risk-adverse, it's not about wanting easy killmails, or anything of the sort. It's about being a pain in someone's arse to the point that they pay you to just go away. Put a different way, it's about bullying the little guy out of his milk money in lieu of beating him up.





Which, despite what some people think, is perfectly acceptable EVE Online gameplay.

Me personally, I don't have a horse in the fight, it's about this game having an intenrall consitant rule set because that's proper and good for it's players. Selfish folk who rely on kinks in game mechanics don't and never will agree. This, btw and for example, is why some in the pve community keep asking for CCP to "return lvl 5 missions to high sec" despite the fact that it was always a bug lol. They don't care that it was bad, they cared that they benifitted from it.