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Snr GM allegedly rules "Starbase Forcefield Ship Bumping" not exploit

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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#21 - 2014-09-11 12:52:35 UTC
I wasn't aware you needed a POS password to bump a giant object more than 15km long inside a shield and near the edge, with another 15+ km long object from outside of the shield that just cynoed in at minimum range to the shield at a well-chosen location.

Who cares about the password? You're spawning the titans close enough to the shield that they're still likely to get geometry inside it that will trigger the collision detection as soon as they move, which in turn will cause the supposedly 'safe' titan to go flying. You only need the password if the hostile titans don't want to get bounced by the shield.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2014-09-11 13:03:02 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I wasn't aware you needed a POS password to bump a giant object more than 15km long inside a shield and near the edge, with another 15+ km long object from outside of the shield that just cynoed in at minimum range to the shield at a well-chosen location.

Who cares about the password? You're spawning the titans close enough to the shield that they're still likely to get geometry inside it that will trigger the collision detection as soon as they move, which in turn will cause the supposedly 'safe' titan to go flying. You only need the password if the hostile titans don't want to get bounced by the shield.



BUT, if you have the password, this is all LEGAL

No one here will argue that, bumping WITH a password is not only legal but encouraged

Now, you have to verify Intent, did they intend to cyno so close without a password hoping to bump or did they think they had the password and thought they were bumping legally. One intent is what people are arguing is an exploit, the other isn't.

You can't check ahead of time, even with a cloaky ship because as soon as you enter force field you uncloak and the trap is sprung, so you have to enter password and jump and hope for the best
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#23 - 2014-09-11 13:13:53 UTC
I would think intent to be pretty easy to determine.

If you're not in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are the intent was hostile.

If you are in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are your cyno pilot is either a ******* moron that should be executed for incompetence, or is a spy.

It really isn't that difficult to move around to the other side of the shield where your supposedly friendly cyno won't bump anything inside the shield. Are we really trying to argue that people can't see the giant ******* titan on their screen? Because I don't think anyone's going to buy that argument.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Cray Havoc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-09-11 14:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cray Havoc
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I would think intent to be pretty easy to determine.

If you're not in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are the intent was hostile.

If you are in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are your cyno pilot is either a ******* moron that should be executed for incompetence, or is a spy.

It really isn't that difficult to move around to the other side of the shield where your supposedly friendly cyno won't bump anything inside the shield. Are we really trying to argue that people can't see the giant ******* titan on their screen? Because I don't think anyone's going to buy that argument.


He is arguing that you could obtain the POS Password through spy/intel/luck and use the same technique without it beeing an exploit.

It's a valid point but I'm pretty sure that it's possible to figure that out later, right now it's important to know if titans in a ******* POS that noone can enter are (supposed to be) save or not.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#25 - 2014-09-11 14:52:32 UTC
I'm not disagreeing that if you have the POS password, the appropriate response to the victim is "lol, welp, sucks to be you".

If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict. The fact that you CAN knock **** out of a POS without having the password because the minimum cyno distance is close enough that a titan can jump in and still touch things on the inside of the shield.

My point still stands, though - if you, inside the POS shield, are getting bumped by large things being cynoed in, the odds of it being an accident are low, because you'd have to be incredibly stupid to set up a friendly cyno in a fashion that would do something like that.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-09-11 15:24:36 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:

If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict.


You would think, but when nothing to do with an exploit shows up in logs, it becomes schrodinger's exploit -- who knows what happened or what the intent was. Then you have the problem of who you ban if hypothetically you had absolute proof (video) -- the titan that hit the bump, or all of them, or just the cyno? Maybe the other titan pilots in the fleet claim they had no idea they were being dropped to intentionally cyno-bump the other guy? It's just a mess.

Easier to just say cyno-bumps are not an exploit and trust people with titans to educate themselves that they need to be fully inside shields by X km to avoid having their collision sphere poke out. Maybe document the damn game a little bit. That or just push the minimum distance for cynos from pos shields out even further, but I'm pretty sure most super pilots would find that cure worse than the disease.




If mobile cyno inhibitors didn't cost 26m and last for just an hour they'd be the perfect defense. Anchor one about 90km from your pos and put your titan on that side of shield edge -- your allies can still jump in on the other side, you can bridge a fleet out from your side.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#27 - 2014-09-11 16:31:42 UTC
so just make cynos not work within 50 or even 100km of a pos. the code for it should be there (hello mobile cyno inhibitor)

not sure why we need to make such a big wave out of this.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2014-09-11 16:35:51 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
so just make cynos not work within 50 or even 100km of a pos. the code for it should be there (hello mobile cyno inhibitor)

not sure why we need to make such a big wave out of this.



I said that in my first post BTW
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2014-09-11 16:36:59 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I'm not disagreeing that if you have the POS password, the appropriate response to the victim is "lol, welp, sucks to be you".

If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict. The fact that you CAN knock **** out of a POS without having the password because the minimum cyno distance is close enough that a titan can jump in and still touch things on the inside of the shield.

My point still stands, though - if you, inside the POS shield, are getting bumped by large things being cynoed in, the odds of it being an accident are low, because you'd have to be incredibly stupid to set up a friendly cyno in a fashion that would do something like that.



The point is, you can't "Test" a pos password, you won't know if you do or don't have it until you cyno in

Therefore you won't know if you exploited until it is too late, that is a horrible mechanic
Dread Nanana
Doomheim
#30 - 2014-09-11 16:53:21 UTC
Paul Tsukaya wrote:

UPDATE: We now have a sisi video of a titan being bumped out of a POS shields in a way that is supposedly not an exploit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oveOq2MQ4sA


Yeap, that does not look very innocent. Looks like a bug to me.

Maybe CCP could fix the jump-in-code so it takes the size of the ship into account so no ship appears closer than 5km from the force field.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#31 - 2014-09-11 17:37:56 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Airi Cho wrote:
so just make cynos not work within 50 or even 100km of a pos. the code for it should be there (hello mobile cyno inhibitor)

not sure why we need to make such a big wave out of this.



I said that in my first post BTW


sure. just wanted to emphasize it. :)
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2014-09-11 17:47:59 UTC
Dread Nanana wrote:
Paul Tsukaya wrote:

UPDATE: We now have a sisi video of a titan being bumped out of a POS shields in a way that is supposedly not an exploit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oveOq2MQ4sA


Yeap, that does not look very innocent. Looks like a bug to me.

Maybe CCP could fix the jump-in-code so it takes the size of the ship into account so no ship appears closer than 5km from the force field.



They already do this, that was fixed like 2 years ago.

The problem is they DONT make it so stuff doesn't bump and when you get that many titans together, some go flying off in many direction, some at high speeds. I have personally seen 12,000 m/s
Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-09-11 18:23:23 UTC
I fail to see what is the benefit in defending this tactic. To score easy kills on an already beaten and camped into npc region enemy? If you wanna bump a titan out get the password.

If you dont have a password then quit scouring regions endlessly looking for bridging titans and I dunno, lead a roam or go make war or something?

.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-09-11 18:49:47 UTC
Cherry Yeyo wrote:
I fail to see what is the benefit in defending this tactic. To score easy kills on an already beaten and camped into npc region enemy? If you wanna bump a titan out get the password.

If you dont have a password then quit scouring regions endlessly looking for bridging titans and I dunno, lead a roam or go make war or something?



That is EXACTLY the point

I don't want to get banned for thinking I have the password, then cynoing in and finding out I don't have the password, the punishment for which is banning due to exploit.

Pretty harsh punishment for a spai being wrong


I'll leave this here as evidence, written by alot of the people here opposing this:

http://themittani.com/news/metagame-tactics-score-pl-titan-kill

Excerpt:
Enter the metagame. PL has a record of many POS passwords - one of which applied to the tower the BL Avatar was sitting in. Brave Machariel pilots entered the password and gained entry into the forcefield.


I realize this was different due to using bumping machariels (lowsec), but whether or not the password worked is the issue, this time it did, next time, we drop Titans and the password doesn't work, do all the Titans deserve a permaban for exploit?

Kind of a rough punishment for the offense is all I am saying
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#35 - 2014-09-11 18:53:39 UTC
Intent matters not. CCP has a hard enough time enforcing is EULA without sifting through the dung heap of intent. Outcome is all that matters. I didn't intend to commit an exploit isn't an excuse. Stay far enough away from the line and there will be no issue. It's pretty simple. I'm quite sure we can find more ways of killing titans if we really tried. Bit that would require logging in for more than just jumping and popping of a round to get some short-term giggles before heading back to Candy Crush.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-09-11 19:03:56 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Cherry Yeyo wrote:
I fail to see what is the benefit in defending this tactic. To score easy kills on an already beaten and camped into npc region enemy? If you wanna bump a titan out get the password.

If you dont have a password then quit scouring regions endlessly looking for bridging titans and I dunno, lead a roam or go make war or something?



That is EXACTLY the point

I don't want to get banned for thinking I have the password, then cynoing in and finding out I don't have the password, the punishment for which is banning due to exploit.

Pretty harsh punishment for a spai being wrong


I'll leave this here as evidence, written by alot of the people here opposing this:

http://themittani.com/news/metagame-tactics-score-pl-titan-kill

Excerpt:
Enter the metagame. PL has a record of many POS passwords - one of which applied to the tower the BL Avatar was sitting in. Brave Machariel pilots entered the password and gained entry into the forcefield.


I realize this was different due to using bumping machariels (lowsec), but whether or not the password worked is the issue, this time it did, next time, we drop Titans and the password doesn't work, do all the Titans deserve a permaban for exploit?

Kind of a rough punishment for the offense is all I am saying


They don't deserve a ban unless you finish the exploit. As it states you need to "not know" the password (or guess wrong), the target has to be inside POS shields, pos ahs to be configured correctly and the target has to die.

If there is no dead titan, there is no exploit being used and no petition going around.

I thought this was self-explanatory to everyone.
Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-09-11 19:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Cherry Yeyo
The crux of the matter isnt the password because the certain someone who has been using this mechanic doesnt care if he has the password or not. Whenever we deploy near these guys his alt is in system all day everyday in his little arazu watching towers and looking for opportunities to do this no matter if the tower is set to alliance or corp only, passworded or scrambled.

The whole thing hinges upon using titans to cause a massive bump to

1. Eject the target from the pos

2. Create momentum for your own titans to warp off before any tackle comes.

Theres only one guy, one FC, one alliance that is doing this. Both PL and Goons have tested it, got it to work and made a video but the mechanics are so janky nobody is exploiting it except this one group.

If you got the password its a simple matter to bump a titan out using machariels, especially if it just bridged a fleet. Theres no support there. Except you need to cyno in a short distance away so the machs can build momentum. If the titan pilot is on the ball and has roles he can quickly change the password.

The titan cyno bump cuts out two steps- you dont need the password and you dont need to build any momentum.

.
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-09-11 19:40:06 UTC
I don't think it's defending the exploit to say that making rules you have no ability to enforce is generally a bad idea. It just throws things into confusion and drama when a did-they-or-didn't-they situation comes up, and in the meantime some people think they're safe when they're not.


IMHO the best response to this would be for CCP to look into a few tweaks to the code that controls bumping. The reason capital bumps (and pos ejections) are so ludicrous is that the game applies a constant force to any 2 object-spheres that intersect -- with no upper limit to velocity. So when some titans drop from a cyno jump and they're all within 2.5 km of each other, that ends up being a few server ticks of bump-acceleration. Add limits to velocity from bumps or some other sanity check and quite a number of quasi-exploits get fixed.

(Personally I've always felt that bumping adds almost nothing to the game. How much faster would the servers run if you just dropped the dumb physics and let ships intersect with each other?)

Cherry Yeyo wrote:

2. Create momentum for your own titans to warp off before any tackle comes.

Well that happens in any supercap drop whether you want the momentum or not.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2014-09-11 21:09:04 UTC
Cherry Yeyo wrote:
The crux of the matter isnt the password because the certain someone who has been using this mechanic doesnt care if he has the password or not. Whenever we deploy near these guys his alt is in system all day everyday in his little arazu watching towers and looking for opportunities to do this no matter if the tower is set to alliance or corp only, passworded or scrambled.

The whole thing hinges upon using titans to cause a massive bump to

1. Eject the target from the pos

2. Create momentum for your own titans to warp off before any tackle comes.

Theres only one guy, one FC, one alliance that is doing this. Both PL and Goons have tested it, got it to work and made a video but the mechanics are so janky nobody is exploiting it except this one group.

If you got the password its a simple matter to bump a titan out using machariels, especially if it just bridged a fleet. Theres no support there. Except you need to cyno in a short distance away so the machs can build momentum. If the titan pilot is on the ball and has roles he can quickly change the password.

The titan cyno bump cuts out two steps- you dont need the password and you dont need to build any momentum.



Yeah, that is easy to police


You have to have a rule or ban that is foolprof in the ability to enforce
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#40 - 2014-09-11 21:11:09 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Cherry Yeyo wrote:
I fail to see what is the benefit in defending this tactic. To score easy kills on an already beaten and camped into npc region enemy? If you wanna bump a titan out get the password.

If you dont have a password then quit scouring regions endlessly looking for bridging titans and I dunno, lead a roam or go make war or something?



That is EXACTLY the point

I don't want to get banned for thinking I have the password, then cynoing in and finding out I don't have the password, the punishment for which is banning due to exploit.

Pretty harsh punishment for a spai being wrong


I'll leave this here as evidence, written by alot of the people here opposing this:

http://themittani.com/news/metagame-tactics-score-pl-titan-kill

Excerpt:
Enter the metagame. PL has a record of many POS passwords - one of which applied to the tower the BL Avatar was sitting in. Brave Machariel pilots entered the password and gained entry into the forcefield.


I realize this was different due to using bumping machariels (lowsec), but whether or not the password worked is the issue, this time it did, next time, we drop Titans and the password doesn't work, do all the Titans deserve a permaban for exploit?

Kind of a rough punishment for the offense is all I am saying


They don't deserve a ban unless you finish the exploit. As it states you need to "not know" the password (or guess wrong), the target has to be inside POS shields, pos ahs to be configured correctly and the target has to die.

If there is no dead titan, there is no exploit being used and no petition going around.

I thought this was self-explanatory to everyone.



So, if you land and the password doesn't work, and the titans gets bumped out, as long as you don't kill the Titan it is OK

Just leave it in space 100km from POS

How long before your friend next door can come in with a HIC and point it, then you jump away and then back cause he found a Titan floating in space?

Again, this has to be able to be policed