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Dev blog: Lighting the invention bulb

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CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-09-11 14:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
While the changes to industry with the Crius release were undoubtedly massive and quite successful, there is more to come: Science! Invention and Reverse Engineering are going to be revamped and improved.

Here a brief overview of the proposed changes (which are not coming with Oceanus):
  • To invent Tech-2 items you require for each invented item a set of two specific science skills. Which skills you exactly need will be changed. For ships you always needed the Mechanical Engineering skill, that is going to change depending on the role of the invented ship.
  • Reverse Engineering to create a Tech-3 blueprint will be merged with Invention, you also will be able to select which subsystem you would like to create. As the invention of Tech-3 blueprints is then integrated in the Invention system, you can also use decryptors for Tech-3 invention.
  • The use of meta items will be removed from Invention, instead of meta items you will be able to use Teams in Invention.
  • Data Interfaces will be removed (and properly reimbursed).
  • Invention results will be non-binary, with some good luck to get an extra boost of ME/TE or,with only a little bad luck you will receive back some datacores used in the invention.
  • Success chances of items and ships will be tweaked a little bit.
  • Installing multiple invention runs at once instead of installing the same invention every hour over and over.


To give everyone enough time to adjust and to get enough feedback, these changes are NOT coming with Oceanus.

Please read all the exciting details, explanations why something is done the way it is and all the juicy background information in CCP Ytterbium's latest dev blog Lighting the invention bulb.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-09-11 14:22:12 UTC
finally getting around to this ? hmm...

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Panteraa
Bermuda Tax Haven
#3 - 2014-09-11 14:24:53 UTC
Are there plans to change T2 BPO's? I'm not looking for details, I'm just curious if a change is on the timeline.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#4 - 2014-09-11 14:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
He's the problem I see. You're making it progressively more complicated to run calculations and analysis on what is necessary to produce, this punishes people willing to make the time investment to work things out properly.

Say I wanted to invent 90 ishtars, I would calculate the amount of materials to produce them using the best value racial decryptor (3 run) and invest in buying those component materials. I would then proceed to have my characters do as many invention jobs as necessary to get the 30 runs (i.e. 30 successful operations).

Now, by throwing more randomness into the fire, I'm not sure what I need without going through, checking every single blueprint and adding them all up, grouping them, calculating them all in turn and then merging the results back together.

I love the idea that failure does not have to consume all of the datacores, but dislike all the extra calculator work that can only be known once the invention jobs have completed.

I could of course save the extra components for a later build, but that then adds more leg-work by having to factor that in when building the next round of materials.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#5 - 2014-09-11 14:33:24 UTC
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Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#6 - 2014-09-11 14:36:03 UTC
Are there any plans to add value to data sites to compensate for the loss of data interface related drops?
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#7 - 2014-09-11 14:36:15 UTC
Quote:

Multiple invention runs

Last but not least, we recently changed Invention to only consume one run of a Tech I blueprint copy instead of eating the whole stack. The next logical course of action is to allow players to start invention with multiple runs (that each consume one run of the input blueprint copy) so they don’t have to launch them manually every hour, which is what we’re going to do with this set of changes.

As a direct consequence of what’s explained just above and after gathering some data of what’s happening post-Crius, we may tweak invention times further on some blueprints to make sure Invention is in a proper state before we move on. We will post more details on this particular point as we get them.


This was most time from it. What you say, "every hour" is like twice a day, or a single time. People either have a chance to put a job in before to head to work, or not, but they most probably have, after work. depending on one's biocycles, maybe one more job if it's a very short one.

Personally right now i even feel using a POS for inventions (half the time) pointless, because t simply wouldn't allow me to install more jobs. So, according to murphy, 4 hours = 7 h = 6h = ... = 24h, as per jobtime. It doesn't matter how long it takes, because it's just not possible for most of us to do anything with it, it simply doesn't fit real life cycles.

Hope this can be taken as an input, and not in the "let's nerf it even more" way.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-09-11 14:40:05 UTC
what's this about inventing capital industrial ships now?
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#9 - 2014-09-11 14:40:42 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
He's the problem I see. You're making it progressively more complicated to run calculations and analysis on what is necessary to produce, this punishes people willing to make the time investment to work things out properly.

Say I wanted to invent 90 ishtars, I would calculate the amount of materials to produce them using the best value racial decryptor (3 run) and invest in buying those component materials. I would then proceed to have my characters do as many invention jobs as necessary to get the 30 runs (i.e. 30 successful operations).

Now, by throwing more randomness into the fire, I'm not sure what I need without going through, checking every single blueprint and adding them all up, grouping them, calculating them all in turn and then merging the results back together.

I love the idea that failure does not have to consume all of the datacores, but dislike all the extra calculator work that can only be known once the invention jobs have completed.

I could of course save the extra components for a later build, but that then adds more leg-work by having to factor that in when building the next round of materials.


Except for the statistical analysis for planning the production batch's cost ahead, the other things you mention here can be pretty much handled. We have assets API to take the remnants into account. We have the SDE with all the data and do recursive analysis for total material requirements. We can select the best-ME BP for each iteration for the quantity it has. So, most of this can be done. However, excel sheets are not much use anymore I agree to that.

And the additional complexity from the variable outputs is really a headache. Right now it's easy to statistically predict the cost of a production batch, including copying, inventions, whatnot. The variable ME throws a bunch of factors in, which will really be a headache to calculate with.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-09-11 14:44:41 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
While the changes to industry with the Crius release were undoubtedly massive and quite successful, there is more to come: Science! Invention and Reverse Engineering are going to be revamped and improved.

Here a brief overview of the proposed changes (which are not coming with Oceanus):
  • To invent Tech-2 items you require for each invented item a set of two specific science skills. Which skills you exactly need will be changed. For ships you always needed the Mechanical Engineering skill, that is going to change depending on the role of the invented ship.
  • Reverse Engineering to create a Tech-3 blueprint will be merged with Invention, you also will be able to select which subsystem you would like to create. As the invention of Tech-3 blueprints is then integrated in the Invention system, will can also use decryptors for Tech-3 invention.
  • The use of meta items will be removed from Invention, instead of meta items you will be able to use Teams in Invention.
  • Data Interfaces will be removed (and properly reimbursed).
  • Invention results will be non-binary, with some good luck to get an extra boost of ME/TE or,with only a little bad lack you will receive back some datacores used in the invention.
  • Success chances of items and ships will be tweaked a little bit.
  • Installing multiple invention runs at once instead of installing the same invention every hour over and over.


To give everyone enough time to adjust and to get enough feeback, these changes are NOT coming with Oceanus.

Please read all the exciting details, explanations why something is done the way it is and all the juicy background information in CCP Ytterbium's latest dev blog Lighting the invention bulb.


1. Why? please justify changing this. It doesnt make sense.

2 this is because not all subs are good at what they are supposed to do and are not particularly useful in any meta.

3. Are teams not working as expected? Players not using them as much as you wanted? Thats because the implementation of them is terrible.

4. .. Kind of like how bpos were ? great.

5. this will result in standardized inventors (as noted by another poster) to have larger shifts in his calculations. while that isnt bad, it also isnt good. a bad ME print hurts far more then a good ME print helps.

6 and 7 . The only interesting parts of this. Everything else is stupid change for the sake of changing things.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#11 - 2014-09-11 14:47:37 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:

[list]
  • Data Interfaces will be removed (and properly reimbursed).



    • how about the exploration tweak? data site right now is full of data interfaces raw materials and BPC

    does it mean data site will contain only Decryptors after this proposed changes?

    or is it something new to add in data site exploration?
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #12 - 2014-09-11 14:48:06 UTC
    Very glad to see meta items and data interfaces being removed from the invention process.

    A question (if it can even be answered at this point): how will decryptors affect the new non-binary success chance?

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    handige harrie
    Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
    #13 - 2014-09-11 14:48:50 UTC
    Hmm, I always liked Railguns as a Caldari weaponsystem and Blasters being Gallente. This way you had Caldari with missiles and Railguns being all efficient from range and Gallente with Drones and Blasters being all pew pew in your face.

    Baddest poster ever
    Noriko Mai
    #14 - 2014-09-11 14:53:39 UTC
    Please proofread... will can also... bad lack = recieve something back?

    "Meh.." - Albert Einstein
    KIller Wabbit
    MEME Thoughts
    #15 - 2014-09-11 14:54:00 UTC
    Customers - prepare to have your skill set raped
    Retar Aveymone
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #16 - 2014-09-11 14:57:03 UTC
    So if I'm reading this correctly, when merging RE (where skills matter) and invention (where they essentially don't) you've made it so RE skills barely matter rather than the other way around?
    probag Bear
    Xiong Offices
    #17 - 2014-09-11 14:57:18 UTC
    Ouch. Adding new outcomes to invention is going to be extremely painful for me.

    Please, at least, consider giving us a better way to filter through all these new BPC options? The current S&I only lets you sort, not filter, by ME and TE. That's extremely unwieldy when you've got a couple of hundred of invention jobs finishing at the same time.

    Also consider letting us trash items directly from the S&I interface? Currently, there is no way to filter OR sort blueprints in the inventory menu, and since the inventory is the only way we can currently trash items, that means it will be close to impossible to sort through all the outcomes and trash the undesirables.
    CCP Ytterbium
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #18 - 2014-09-11 15:00:25 UTC
    Panteraa wrote:
    Are there plans to change T2 BPO's? I'm not looking for details, I'm just curious if a change is on the timeline.


    We are not happy with them in general - what would exactly happen to them and when remains quite undefined for now.
    Ms Michigan
    Aviation Professionals for EVE
    #19 - 2014-09-11 15:00:45 UTC
    Overall as a former industry/science guy, I like the changes.

    AttentionThe major thing I caution you on is the value of Meta 2-4 gear post this change!

    If you implement this as is I can forsee an overabundance of either A) wasted meta bpcs, or B) excess meta loot added to the market.

    QuestionBefore all of you go flaming me, I think it needs mention that I do recollect that Meta loot drops might be removed all together? and Meta loot WILL be tweaked (I believe CCP Fozzie mentioned this).


    With that said, I would like to see CCP comment here on how these changes take into account this problem and working with the META loot tweaks before this thread turns into a 100 page rage fest on this topic.
    Michael Gaulewicz
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #20 - 2014-09-11 15:03:49 UTC
    still not info about the data sites - I would like to see more BPC of ships and another stuff there instead of material nad BPCs for interfaces - will be reimbursed also material needed for Interfaces?
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