Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Hi.

Either i didn't search well or it really doesn't exist but i didn't find any complaint about the bumping rules set by the EVE engine.

I am amazed by the way the game handles colliding objects in the EVE universe : it's a total nonsense that small objects may bump heavy ones as if they were leafs in the wind !

how can a small frigate make a full heavy Bs change radically its course or even move miles away ?

Doens't this annoy anyone ?

If i am right, there are even techniques to prevent a ship warping by constantly bumping it and so force it to realign constantly (which can be dramatic on heavy slow alignement ships )

Why does collisions in EVE work this way ?

I understand that involving complex physic equations between so many objects could ruin the performances , but when i see the complexity of fire hit and damage calculation i don't think that introducing a small equation would overcharge computers.

Moreover some features are already there as speed and movement vectors between moving objects (as you constantly have angular,transversal and so on vellocities vectors , in the game)

The only thing to implement should be a mass index to ease the computing of collision.

Here is what i suggest :

I agree with the fact that we can not add damages resulting in collisions as there would be an unbalance between good and bad ping and so on.
But as for the displacement of the objects involved in a collision thing could be like this :

-->each class of non static object has a mass index ( ie: 1 for a frig , 10 for a bs)
-->the game already knows the movement vector of each object (has said above , for targetting rules (angular,transversal velocities)
-->when 2 bounding boxes collide , simply check which one has the highest movement vector . this one is the colliding object relative to the other (if more than 2 objects then just separate all collision in pairs (ie if objects A,B and C collide , check who has the lowest movement vector ; let say that from the lowest to the highest we have B then A then C : the game will compute first B vs C with C the colliding one then B vs A with A the colliding one )

--> make the difference between the colliding object index mass and the collided one : in the exemple let say B is a HULK and C a frig ; let assume HULK has a mass index of 10 and a frig a mass index of 1 : it gives 1-10=-9 let call the result the Index Mass Difference or IMD

--> put in place a simple calcul as (it's just an idea) --> IF IMD < 0 collided object will have his vector modified by the addition of the colliding object vectors as follow : √( colliding object velocity vector ) / IMD and collindign obect will be reppeled by another calcul the dev have to find
-->IF IMD > 0 the collided obect will have his vector modified by ( colliding object velocity vector ) * IMD

in our exemple let say the hulk is stationnary and the frig hits it with a velocity of 500m/sec : it would give
As IMD < 0 (-9) : √( 500) / 9 = 22.36 / 9 = 2.48 m/sec : the hulk would be moved by a velocity of 2.48 m/sec opposite of the frig vector : as for the frig it would be reppeled according to the calcul find by our beloved Dev

If it was the contrary : frig statio and hulk collinding with a velocity of 65m/sec it would give : as IMD>0 : √( 65 )*9=72m/sec.

Thus the hulk bumped is far less moved than if he bumps the frig .

More over colliding object should not have their "alignement axis" modified (it ' s a bit silly to see either a frig or a huge starship making a 180 roll on his axis in les than 2 seconds : imagine the consequences on board
In fact if the ship was in alignment procedure in order to warp , the displacement resulting in the collision will nevertheless call another computation ; but in our exemple above the hulk will have to recalculate far less than the frig as it only moved by 2.48 m/sec.

Well i hope it has been clear enough cause my english is not so good and i write this beeig a little tired but i hope you caught the idea......

Thanks for reading

I'm all for adding more logics and true physics into this game. It's a science-fiction game, after all and your calculations seems logical. I havent analysed them in details though, but they seem to make sense.

Screw these forums. I hit post, and it deletes everything


Well I had a nice long explanation here. but **** that I'm not writing it again.

Basically I don't see anything wrong with the current physics, the forces involved with the mass and speeds in this game are huge.

A ferox with a 100MN MWD is gonna deliver force to w/e it hits equal to about 71 international space stations at half a million Kilograms each traveling at 22.6 times the speed of sound.

Like I said. I had the math. And maybe if someone shows interest in the thread I wont feel its such a waste of time to rewrite it if asked.

Thanks a lot for your support , i really didn't expect that cause i really thought it was a subject often discussed.

I am surprised it seems not to be.

I am no mathematician so my equation is rough and simple ; though it seems to make sense as it was said in above post ! i assume the dev could help in finding a better one , still remaining simple not to overcharge the game computing.

--> @ Kuhn Arashi : i understand what you're saying , but the fact is that EVE is constantly balancing between realistic behavior and complete nonsense : ie , you don't burn near a star , or as i said your ship can spin several degrees in less than one second (which basically could transform every living entities onboard in a messy bloody pulp ).
So yes , i assume that a little object roaming space at 3 km/sec has a huge cinetic energy potential but well , if we plan like that so every combat should be played as a realistic space physic simulator and we would have a good Frontier Elite feeling , with inertia and so on... and it would be a terrible mess.

I just try to make some sense on the game feeling : your titan is beautifull , huge and its presence brings fear on the opponent ...yet a rifter can turn it in a paper plane . That's nonsense and even with real physic calculation i assume that what would happen is not a moving titan but a blowing one and a melting frig.

I hope that someone can give me the reason the dev put things like this , or that a dev can discuss that with us so we could make things better regarding ships behavior.

I chose a 1-10 factor because each ship has its own mass but they are huge numbers , multiplying the complexity of the formula.

My choice is to make it simplier , for explanation and because if the game handles well collisions in the exemple you gave , there is an obvious gape in slow motion objects .

I totally agree that heavy ships launched with mwd full power bring a cinetic vector strong enough to move very very huge objects on some signicative distance.

But didn't you notice that if i hit your beautifull bs or even carrier with a frig , even at low speed , your ship gonna be moved and spinned in a weird way instead of remain completly still ? and that bring a total unbalanced situation when you want to warp or simply align.
Bearilian explained that very well in his reply

I missed the point in my first post in fact : i speak mostly for low speed occurences . and to stop this weird spinning effect that has nothing to do with collision between ships of so different masses.

it's easy after that to replace my index with the real masses . The fact is that two colliding objects should move and spin according to their mass and vector speed differences (cinetic energy ), and that's not the case in the game as whatever ship you have , you can make a small or heavy ship move and spin the same way by bumping (in term of same way i want to say 'too close enough' that it should be).

Your exemple goes to the extreme , i just want to discuss about fixing common situation.

Once again i agree with you but that's not the point of this topic!

I don't want to add damages to collisions as reality would do .

I just want to highlight that it is a big cut into immersion to see ships behave the way it is in the game.

It's obvious that the game won't bring us a realist physical gameplay , once again the only game who did that was Frontier Elite and trust me , fights were boring (try to manage a fight where you orbit thousand miles away from your target because of realistic space physics and huge velocities...)

The fact is that right now , we've got a game that try to be very pleasant to play and to do so , put some real physics behaviors aside. And that's fine.

But please don't tell me that you feel comfortable , happy , and in total immersion when you see a huge ship which should represent stability , power , and strengh (even a cargo should give a good feeling of 'presence ' as the Nostromo in alien if you want ) , beeing treated like a feather in the wind by a ship half its size (or even less)

Moreover it serve as an exploit against huge ship : see , a huge ship in this game only has cons : you fly very slow (if you want reality i assure you that you shouldn't be limited to 120m/sec) , you turn and align very slow , but when you're collided you spin so fast it still surpises me when it occurs....so why a huge ship should have the cons of its mass , and not the pros ; and don't speak of firepower and tanking , cargo , exhumer , barges and so on don't have that , but still are heavy and should not beeing tossed away by little bees.

i begin to think i am not very clear in what i would like the dev to examine

what you're not taking into account with the air analogy is that there is a much greater volume of air moving those things. mass isn't the only thing that affects it.

edit- in reality if a rifter rammed a cruiser it'd explode on impact, and likely cut deeply into it with the shrapnel. the cruiser probably wouldn't move much.

What we see would be the realistic bouncing if objects did bounce off each other in RL.

Actually, smaller, faster vessels should have even more of an impact on the flight path of larger, slower ones than they do currently. but that would make bumping way to effective of a tactic.


Also, everything goes out the window for stationary objects.
If a frig bumps a BS that is stationary, the BS rotates because the game engine treats it as if the BS changed direction (as there is very little reverse movement). The frig didn't rotate the BS, the BS rotated to point in the direction of movement.

You perfectly sumed up the situation ; i agree with you Bearilian .

I knew that some people approved the way bumping acts as it serves some tactics , but i am surprised by the number.

Well , we'll see if some dev will give us a rightfull answer on that case :)