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How to see the system cost index

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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#1 - 2014-09-11 10:48:00 UTC
I'm tossing around with the idea of moving my base of manufacturing operations closer to my logistics chain to nullsec.

And I'm having a hell of a time getting a grip on how much my costs will be, or better said, how the system cost index translates into ISK per unit of the thing I'm trying to make.

For various reasons I'm gearing up to make a certain item until I bleed because i know I can push it all in nullsec. I don't need to go to a hub except to buy input materials.

Anyone find a handy-dandy rule of thumb for translating that stupid red bar into any kind of useful information?

and CCP, if you're reading this.... puuuleeezzz .... just turn it into a tax rate with an actual number.

T-
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#2 - 2014-09-11 11:06:26 UTC
To get the exact cost index in decimal form you can poll the CREST API at the /industry/systems/ endpoint. You can read more about it in this dev blog. If you've got questions about how to get or work with the data, head over to the Technology Lab forums for tech help.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#3 - 2014-09-11 11:15:02 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
To get the exact cost index in decimal form you can poll the CREST API at the /industry/systems/ endpoint. You can read more about it in this dev blog. If you've got questions about how to get or work with the data, head over to the Technology Lab forums for tech help.


I saw something that looked like a massive CSV file. is that the one you mean?

T-
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-09-11 11:19:22 UTC
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#5 - 2014-09-11 11:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Derrick Miles
Yeah that's it. It's actually a JSON file but the formatting probably doesn't show up in your browser. It contains the indices for every system out to a significant number of decimal places, so you can pull that and then just search for whatever systems you need.
Qinby
ImNo6
#6 - 2014-09-11 11:40:58 UTC
Quite tricky....

The best thing is to check the manu. index either in the map or in www.fuzzwork.co.uk, just looking "at the red bar" doesnt say anything.

That bit is of course not the problem, the problem is how dynamic this system is (the cost index Changes very quickly).
We have moved 4 times in a month and still havnt figured out the right strategy yet (leaving teams for billions each time).

One question is how many slots (hours) you use yourself (your corp) in the planned system, we "use" about about 4,500-5500h/day and we seem to change the index substantiully by ourselfs.

The current system we are in started at 0,57% 2 weeks ago and today the index is 4,4%, this should suggest that the total amount of manu. hours is in the vicinity of 70,000,000 Hours/28 day period.

This number is an aproximation since lately new corps have turned up (we have put teams here for billions again) and how much they produce i cant know for sure except i can guess according to how many jobs they install.

Our strategy will propably be to spread out and see if that works and by that not putting to many good teams in the same system and hope that helps a bit.

This was just some info of what we have experienced so far and i will post my stats. as soon as i have got them together.

IF ANYBODY ELSE HAVE AN APROXIMATION OF THE AMOUNT OF MANUFACTORING HOURS PLEASE POST IT.

Rgds Qinby
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2014-09-11 12:09:57 UTC
Qinby wrote:
Quite tricky....

The best thing is to check the manu. index either in the map or in www.fuzzwork.co.uk, just looking "at the red bar" doesnt say anything.

That bit is of course not the problem, the problem is how dynamic this system is (the cost index Changes very quickly).
We have moved 4 times in a month and still havnt figured out the right strategy yet (leaving teams for billions each time).

One question is how many slots (hours) you use yourself (your corp) in the planned system, we "use" about about 4,500-5500h/day and we seem to change the index substantiully by ourselfs.

The current system we are in started at 0,57% 2 weeks ago and today the index is 4,4%, this should suggest that the total amount of manu. hours is in the vicinity of 70,000,000 Hours/28 day period.

This number is an aproximation since lately new corps have turned up (we have put teams here for billions again) and how much they produce i cant know for sure except i can guess according to how many jobs they install.

Our strategy will propably be to spread out and see if that works and by that not putting to many good teams in the same system and hope that helps a bit.

This was just some info of what we have experienced so far and i will post my stats. as soon as i have got them together.

IF ANYBODY ELSE HAVE AN APROXIMATION OF THE AMOUNT OF MANUFACTORING HOURS PLEASE POST IT.

Rgds Qinby



Well, precrius, iirc, it was around 2.3 billion minutes per month. so 38 million ish hours. or 1.6 million days.

It's crazy numbers, really.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#8 - 2014-09-11 12:21:36 UTC
Qinby wrote:


One question is how many slots (hours) you use yourself (your corp) in the planned system, we "use" about about 4,500-5500h/day and we seem to change the index substantiully by ourselfs.



I think it's also sustained draw over time. I only generate about 150-200 hours a day in my "uppie" (alone). I think if I found a quiet system I wouldn't impact it too much.

[/quote]

It would be very attractive to me to join a corp with your volume with 5 or 6 characters if there were some way for us to strengthen one another. I'm not sure how we could, though.

I'm just a 1 man miner/manufacturing operation. TBH I don't mine much. I have an orca pilot with links and in total I can put the orca and 3 miners on the field. I also have 2 competent combat pilots in Random Events as well as freighte/ jump-freighter toons and null sec connections based on real-life friendships, in 3 major null-sec power blocks.

Just thinking out loud here for now....

T-
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#9 - 2014-09-11 12:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: SJ Astralana
Load a blueprint with no teams selected, divide the installation cost by the total estimated price. There's your index down to the last .01 isk. You can do this for any facility in your current region.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#10 - 2014-09-11 12:45:43 UTC
SJ Astralana wrote:
Load a blueprint with no teams selected, divide the installation cost by the total estimated price. There's your index down to the last .01 isk. You can do this for any facility in your current region.


Good idea!

Any idea how you do that when you aren't in the region and don't have a blue print on hand that can be installed at the station in question?

T-

p.s. this is exactly what I've had to do.... fly around eve in a shuttle with a frig BPC in cargo to check it. Surely to God CCP didn't intend for us to have to do this!

T-
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#11 - 2014-09-11 13:34:00 UTC
Then you either parse through the Crest API or look up your system in Fuzzwork, which has already been linked in this thread twice. (Three times if you count the one in Steve's sig.)
Angie Chatter
#12 - 2014-09-11 13:41:21 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:

Any idea how you do that when you aren't in the region and don't have a blue print on hand that can be installed at the station in question?


Just use api.eve-industry.org its a simple xml api u can directly import into excel or gdocs. the BPC job api also provides the numbers u need to exactly calculate the install cost, there is also the .pdf with all needed formulas.
Qinby
ImNo6
#13 - 2014-09-11 15:43:39 UTC
Just a small comment.

THE VALUE IN THE INDUSTRY UI IS NOT THE JOB BASE PRICE (i Think it is estimated sellprice in region?)

The value in the UI says "total estimated price" and a few minutes ago a Hulk was about 261 mill, in fuzzworks the base price is 168 mill and that is the value you use when you calculate the install price.

The intelligent thing to do would be to display the job base price in the UI and the Index.

Strange thing just happened when i was checking these number... the Hulk Went from "total estimated price" of said 261 mill to 522 mill and my Manufacturing index has gone up from 4,44% to 8,8289% since 9:39 today thursday that is now less than 6 hours.

SOMETHING MUST JUST HAVE GONE SERIOUSLY WRONG
Installprice for a HULK Went from 5,5 mill to about 16 mill????

CHECK YOUR PRICES, this happened just about 15 "EVE time"

For the index to double in 6 hours from 4,4 to 8,2 means that aprox 470.000 hours have been added the last six hours that is aprox. 78000 jobbs meaning at least 7.800 players????

But of course something is wrong or very badly explained.

looking forward to somebodys feedback on this issue.

Rgds Qinby

(my numbers are based on my earlier assumption of aprox. 70.000.000 hours production in a 28 day interval).
The install cost are from the UI and the index from Fuzzwork.

The index seems to have changed back again? BUT the install cost is still wrong 16 mill for a Hulk and the build time aswell (seems to be double)
It's now 15:35
Qinby
ImNo6
#14 - 2014-09-11 16:24:02 UTC
For a small comment it got quite large....
Qinby
ImNo6
#15 - 2014-09-11 18:59:39 UTC
Qinby wrote:
For a small comment it got quite large....


"EvE" Time... 18:32

The values seems to have "been corrected" but mishapps like this makes it harder "for the outsider" to figure out what the facts are.
But still.... the installment COSTs for ex. a hulk has gone from 565.000 ISK to 8000.000ISK in 2 weeks if you then build from scratch the same thing happened there (aprox same values) meaning for us a HUlk has gone from1,1 mill to 16 mill in jobb cost in 2 weeks and we are a 30 man corp.... (we might be to big?)

The game mechanichs are well documented and the calculations aswell (by third party mostly....) but to be able to make a sound and economical/strategical solutions we can't have 26? unknown variables (26 is not ment as a scientific fact (or to quote the US Congress "A Factual Fact"").


Will check what we paid in jobbs installed after 15 UTC (thought we were a billion short...) I recommend people to do the same if they installed jobs after that.
Pretty simple to see it was atleast twice as expensive.

One simple answer to these questions would be if CCP provided them, if they will i do not know BUT there are more "Prominent" persons in this thread that might know who to ask or if they should give out the info.


Rgds Qinby
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#16 - 2014-10-06 08:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
The changes are related to both system cost index AND sell price of the finished item - both variables are used in the installation cost. Thus a rising price for the finished job(and not only the change of the system cost index) makes the next job even more expensive - check out the dev blog for the example calculations

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2014-10-06 11:19:45 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
The changes are related to both system cost index AND sell price of the finished item - both variables are used in the installation cost. Thus a rising price for the finished job(and not only the change of the system cost index) makes the next job even more expensive - check out the dev blog for the example calculations



Nope.

That got updated. The price that's important, is the price of the materials. And it's not the market price. It's an adjusted price (available from the CREST endpoint) which is less subject to manipulation.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#18 - 2014-10-06 11:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
The changes are related to both system cost index AND sell price of the finished item - both variables are used in the installation cost. Thus a rising price for the finished job(and not only the change of the system cost index) makes the next job even more expensive - check out the dev blog for the example calculations



Nope.

That got updated. The price that's important, is the price of the materials. And it's not the market price. It's an adjusted price (available from the CREST endpoint) which is less subject to manipulation.



Wow i obviously missed that change then - would you mind pointing to the documentation of that change (the market costs of the end product change) as i dont see anything pointing from the official dev blogs to that kind of change?

Edit: Just to make sure we are generally on the same discussion topic here : this is the latest official formula on the dev blogs
pricing formula. You are saying the (price of output ) part has been deleted - but there is no indicator in the dev blog or the attached discussion to it

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#19 - 2014-10-10 15:41:59 UTC
Steve's correct, price of inputs is now the determinant rather than price of output. This shoooould be specified in the patch notes, which are the final authority on such things.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#20 - 2014-10-10 16:16:11 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Steve's correct, price of inputs is now the determinant rather than price of output. This shoooould be specified in the patch notes, which are the final authority on such things.


Good that you have joined us.

Do you understand that it's important for manufacturers to be able to calculate production costs accuately?

Do you also understand that producers who have deal with red bars that (evidently) mean different things in different places are lost? Do you understand that the little red bars as information carriers are completely and utterly useless do the one group of EVE players who needs that information to be current and relevant?

if we can at least agree to understand these two things then we've made a step.

T-
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