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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

First post First post First post
Author
Baldy Mc Slaphead
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2014-09-11 11:30:12 UTC
Cismet wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.


I'm sorry Falcon, but I disagree with you almost entirely. It's absolutely not cut and dried. You have a game where an unofficial motto is "Harden the f*** up" (or derivatives), I have heard and seen CCP employees using this phrase several times. Others state that you should "trust noone".

This game is a game where what would be considered griefing by almost any other multiplayer game is not only accepted, but it is encouraged. This is a game where people are allowed to lie, cheat, steal, gank and destroy thousands of hours or more of peoples hard worked time and "harvesting tears" is an alliance past time. A game with events like hulkageddon, burn jita and countless other examples of griefing and harassment. By any definition many of these constitute harassment. If you are banning people for it in a game where you allow and encourage these things to happen, then you'd better bet that it IS your job to dictate what you constitute human decency.

All of the above are savage examples of a lack of human decency that you ENCOURAGE. I find every single one of them disgusting, as do many other people. There are other examples that I would find completely lacking in human decency as well. You cannot turn around and tell people they should know what constitutes human decency, while encouraging and permitting the lack of same.

You want it to be cut and dry, but it's not. You are now in a situation where noone has any idea what the line is because actions taken for some griefing are inconsistent with actions taken years ago. It's time CCP stopped hotfooting around this issue and trying to avoid the issue. You created this situation directly, or indirectly and it's unacceptable to try and skirt responsibility on the grounds that everyone should be aware of what human decency is. Most of the acts in the game wouldn't happen if people actually followed your human decency credo that you're spouting now that something truly awful has happened (I'm inferring based on the reaction, as of course transparency only goes so far and there's little information on what actually happened).

Let me be clear, I love the game and it's one with a unique community found nowhere else and that these actions are allowed is partly what makes it what it is.

That being said, you can't say, well we're going to allow you to not bother with human decency for the most part, excepting where we think you've gone too far. It just doesn't work and is the coward's way around. Yes people will skirt the rules, that's what people do. But by having rules you actually set a standard that if broken you can take action.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the concept of "human decency" fluctuates based on culture, country and over time. One hundred years ago, racism, homophobia and women's rights were very different than today. As little as a few years ago marriage for homosexuals was a pipe dream. In parts of Africa, homosexuals are punished harshly by society. In the Middle East, women have much fewer rights. You can't just claim human decency as a blanket coverall and hope that absolves CCP of responsibility.

I might well get banned for this post depending on how CCP are feeling at the moment, this post might get removed. If one of those things happen then it was a fun time, but I wouldn't want to be part of a game who refuses to take responsibility for the world it created.


Great post, truly great. CCP take a leaf out of this guys book, THIS is how you back up one side of a decision / argument.

Bravo
Clara Pond
Never Not Snazzy
#222 - 2014-09-11 11:31:10 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
[quote=voetius]People asking for a strict definition of "real-life harassment" are asking for the impossible in my opinion.


A definition isn't required. The person should get a one month ban with a clear explanation of the behaviour that was considered unacceptable. If they are unapologetically recalcitrant, then go for the permaban. That's how fair, grownup communities work.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-09-11 11:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Black Pedro wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Given that the last person who did this was banned, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that continued to do this.


Sure, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems that people who had no connection, or only a tangential connection to pre-Erotica 1 ban bonus rooms have been permabanned


Hey this sounds familiar but I can't put my finger on it....

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#224 - 2014-09-11 11:33:45 UTC
Could it be that CCP has once again banned a bunch of people who weren't even involved in the thing they've been banned for? I mean it wouldn/t be the first time this year that CCP has done that.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Dave Stark
#225 - 2014-09-11 11:34:53 UTC
Clara Pond wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
[quote=voetius]People asking for a strict definition of "real-life harassment" are asking for the impossible in my opinion.


A definition isn't required. The person should get a one month ban with a clear explanation of the behaviour that was considered unacceptable. If they are unapologetically recalcitrant, then go for the permaban. That's how fair, grownup communities work.


If CCP would have just come out and said it wasn't allowed to begin with, there wouldn't be a need to ban them for a month.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#226 - 2014-09-11 11:35:46 UTC
Clara Pond wrote:


A definition isn't required. The person should get a one month ban with a clear explanation of the behaviour that was considered unacceptable. If they are unapologetically recalcitrant, then go for the permaban. That's how fair, grownup communities work.


Yep, that would solve it.

With the exception of genuinely extreme incidents (i.e. threatening real life violence) warranting a permaban without warning.

However, as I documented on page 12 of this thread, threatening RL violence does not seem to cross the line for CCP.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Echo Belly
#227 - 2014-09-11 11:39:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

(...)
I'll be honest, the e1 thing, and now this, kinda put a dampener on this game for me. (...)
It'd be nice to have a bit more fun in eve, but being banned for what attracted me to eve... not exactly a motivation to have more fun in eve and get involved with other players.

That sums it up pretty well for me.

I'll add I was really looking forward to the next big patch introducing the french language to EvE. I was thinking finally, with more players the french speaking community will be able to take the game to a new level and "play for real". Which means not just the spreadsheets part but also the meta game -which is to me the most important and most interesting part of the game.

I wanted to bring RL friends and get involved, i wanted to take it far... But now i really feel disheartened. How "far" will be too far ?

Well according to CCP's it's clearly double standards for everyone, so "too far" only depends on who people are, not what they actually did or didn't do. "Come play EvE, the game where everything's possible and nothing's allowed."

And I don't like this schizophrenic stance that consists in saying : "You don't need clear rules because you already know them very well" and at the same time : "Adult players need their hands hold through the game because it could be torture !"

By that definition if you play EvE you're either evil or an imbecile. I don't want to fit in any of these squares, I was only here for the fun. Nevermind.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#228 - 2014-09-11 11:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Disgusted by CCP's stance of banning people for 'RL abuse' while tolerating out-of-game threats of violence made in the EVE client and forums.


I am disgusted by hypocrits. Funny when i am shot down, or i shoot down others, i do not get any threats. Especially no RL threats. I get frustrated loosing a ship and get angry. (i assume my victim too) but...
So the question you avoid: What do YOU do, that someone gets so agitatet? I assume, that you willingly provoke those actions. So in the end, you wouldn't have shot someone, you humuliate them out of the game, when they react the way you plan for.
You probably think this is smart!

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2014-09-11 11:42:53 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Disgusted by CCP's stance of banning people for 'RL abuse' while tolerating out-of-game threats of violence made in the EVE client and forums.


I am disgusted by hypocrits. Funny when i am shot down, or i shoot down others, i do not get any threats. Especially no RL threats. I get frustrated loosing a ship and get angry. butt...
So the question you avoid: What do YOU do, that someone gets so agitatet? I assume, that you willingly provoke those actions. So in the end, you wouldn't have shot someone, you humuliate them out of the game.
You probalbly think this is smart!


Yeah, your experience is the only experience we need to go on. It's never happened to you so it's INCONCEIVABLE that it might happen to others. I'm certain you sound smart to yourself but, you're not. Because my experience has been entirely different. I was doxxed, my family threatened, and all I did to them was explode a Hyperion and an Omen. Are you gonna stand there and tell me that's not what happened? Forget hypocrisy, let's talk about pretentiousness.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#230 - 2014-09-11 11:43:40 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Disgusted by CCP's stance of banning people for 'RL abuse' while tolerating out-of-game threats of violence made in the EVE client and forums.


I am disgusted by hypocrits. Funny when i am shot down, or i shoot down others, i do not get any threats. Especially no RL threats. I get frustrated loosing a ship and get angry. (and my vitim too) but...
So the question you avoid: What do YOU do, that someone gets so agitatet? I assume, that you willingly provoke those actions. So in the end, you wouldn't have shot someone, you humuliate them out of the game.
You probalbly think this is smart!


Maybe it's bad English or maybe it's bad English, but are you really trying that people who scam & gank in game only do so because they're unwilling to shoot people irl? If so then please seek professional help.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#231 - 2014-09-11 11:46:12 UTC
La Rynx wrote:

So the question you avoid: What do YOU do, that someone gets so agitatet?


I use a six letter word.

That word is "permit".

Quote:

I assume, that you willingly provoke those actions. So in the end, you wouldn't have shot someone, you humuliate them out of the game, when they react the way you plan for.


Far from it. Now, I know you would love to blame the victims of these irl threats and harassment since it fits with your twisted carebear world view, but it's not the truth of the matter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

CODE Agent AC
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#232 - 2014-09-11 11:46:15 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Disgusted by CCP's stance of banning people for 'RL abuse' while tolerating out-of-game threats of violence made in the EVE client and forums.


I am disgusted by hypocrits. Funny when i am shot down, or i shoot down others, i do not get any threats. Especially no RL threats. I get frustrated loosing a ship and get angry. (i assume my victim too) but...
So the question you avoid: What do YOU do, that someone gets so agitatet? I assume, that you willingly provoke those actions. So in the end, you wouldn't have shot someone, you humuliate them out of the game.
You probalbly think this is smart!


I had someone state they would find me, and shoot me in the head. Because they lost a barge. After speaking with said party, a few others in local were involved. He stated the same request to them in local, many of them having nothing to do with the actions that took place nor our alliance. Attempts to calm down were met with contempt and more hostility. Last time I heard, even after tickets were files, he is still flying around. Again, the statement was 'rifle to head' and all I did was blow up a digital spaceship in a spaceship shooting game. Sorry.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#233 - 2014-09-11 11:46:26 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Disgusted by CCP's stance of banning people for 'RL abuse' while tolerating out-of-game threats of violence made in the EVE client and forums.


I am disgusted by hypocrits. Funny when i am shot down, or i shoot down others, i do not get any threats. Especially no RL threats. I get frustrated loosing a ship and get angry. (and my vitim too) but...
So the question you avoid: What do YOU do, that someone gets so agitatet? I assume, that you willingly provoke those actions. So in the end, you wouldn't have shot someone, you humuliate them out of the game.
You probalbly think this is smart!


Maybe it's bad English or maybe it's bad English, but are you really trying that people who scam & gank in game only do so because they're unwilling to shoot people irl? If so then please seek professional help.


I think what he is saying is that the person those threats were aimed at intentionally provoked the person into making them via some form of trolling or harassment.

The person they were aimed at, which was not me, had (AFAICT) never interacted with the person threatening them.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Solecist Project
#234 - 2014-09-11 11:46:27 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Maybe it's bad English or maybe it's bad English, but are you really trying that people who scam & gank in game only do so because they're unwilling to shoot people irl? If so then please seek professional help.

You're eating her bait.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2014-09-11 11:46:51 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Disgusted by CCP's stance of banning people for 'RL abuse' while tolerating out-of-game threats of violence made in the EVE client and forums.


I am disgusted by hypocrits. Funny when i am shot down, or i shoot down others, i do not get any threats. Especially no RL threats. I get frustrated loosing a ship and get angry. (and my vitim too) but...
So the question you avoid: What do YOU do, that someone gets so agitatet? I assume, that you willingly provoke those actions. So in the end, you wouldn't have shot someone, you humuliate them out of the game.
You probalbly think this is smart!


Maybe it's bad English or maybe it's bad English, but are you really trying that people who scam & gank in game only do so because they're unwilling to shoot people irl? If so then please seek professional help.


I'm pretty sure he's trying to say that, he's blown stuff up and been blown up and never once been threatened for it or whatever, so for it to happen to someone else, they must have provoked it in some other way to begin with. That's how I understood it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#236 - 2014-09-11 11:48:14 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Because my experience has been entirely different. I was doxxed, my family threatened, and all I did to them was explode a Hyperion and an Omen.


Sure, and S.A. did nothing else than shooting a retriever.
So since your experince has more value than my experience i shall be silent.
Sure!

Anyway thats just a complete different point.
Those guys have crossed a line and now there are tears.
fine with me.





Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

CODE Agent AC
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#237 - 2014-09-11 11:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CODE Agent AC
Oh also I am assume that THIS is valid since it is still under the CCP channel.

(Note Edited to fix link)

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2014-09-11 11:50:30 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Because my experience has been entirely different. I was doxxed, my family threatened, and all I did to them was explode a Hyperion and an Omen.


Sure, and S.A. did nothing else than shooting a retriever.
So since your experince has more value than my experience i shall be silent.
Sure!

Anyway thats just a complete different point.
Those guys have crossed a line and now there are tears.
fine with me.







*WHOOSH!!*

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#239 - 2014-09-11 11:52:45 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
but are you really trying that people who scam & gank in game only do so because they're unwilling to shoot people irl?


Nope, bad english may be, but i think it takes some mind-bending to read this out of my posting.
As RL threats are not to be taken lightly, still a certain group of people try hard to get emotional resonses.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#240 - 2014-09-11 11:54:29 UTC
So this thread is back again, let's see:

1) CCP has rules and guidelines set in line of the EULA which are on purpose left as wide as possible in the case they need to act on it. Remember, the purposed victim is the one contacting CCP and seeing if they will enact on those rules and guidelines to see if they were crossed or not.

2) EULA dictates that

"B. By CCP for Breach or Misconduct
(1) Suspension of Account

Without limiting CCP's rights or remedies, CCP may immediately, and without notice, discontinue or suspend access to the System through your Account, and any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the discontinued or suspended Account, in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA (including the Rules of Conduct) by you or any user under your Account; or (ii) unauthorized access to the System or use of the Game by you or any user under your Account."

This is being done here. CCP has to notify the affected party but they are not required to explain themselves outside of "Breach of EULA and/or ToS". In this case, CCP Falcon has explained the situation further in this thread. Is it a line in the sand and is it blurry? Yes, by design.

3) If you are not sure on if the conduct is within reason or EULA/ToS, you should stop and take a second look instead of pushing on. Your account is your responsibility and it can be denied access by sole dicretion of CCP.

4) If you live in a civilized country, aiding and abetting is reality; if it's a group activity you need to understand that this will leave you vulnerable to enforcement via proxy unless you can prove that you have nothing to do with the activity other people are accused of. If you are not sure about this, contact CCP when you see something which could be seen as a breach of EULA/ToS.

On the topic of social behaviour: if you can discuss and act around total strangers in the middle of the street in a way these alleged violators have, then the behaviour should be accepted and shouldn't be enforceable. If this behaviour cannot be done to a total stranger on the street and it would cause someone to contact the authorities, then the alleged violations are not part of human social interaction and shouldn't be projected towards a player.

Disclaimer: PLAYER does not equal CHARACTER as one player can have more than one character, but one character cannot have more than one player.