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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#161 - 2014-09-11 08:28:42 UTC
flower pot wrote:
Looking back in history of EVE, how come Mittani got a few days banned for going out in public the way he did while these guys now is perma banned for something not even half as worse?
looks like CCP isnt consistent if you ask me



I look on it like this..

Mittani was the high profile warning shot across the bow.

That warning shot has either been forgotten or ignored, and now the consequences are starting to hit.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
flower pot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#162 - 2014-09-11 08:31:01 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
flower pot wrote:
Looking back in history of EVE, how come Mittani got a few days banned for going out in public the way he did while these guys now is perma banned for something not even half as worse?
looks like CCP isnt consistent if you ask me



I look on it like this..

Mittani was the high profile warning shot across the bow.

That warning shot has either been forgotten or ignored, and now the consequences are starting to hit.


but how do you justify a few days ban vs perma ban, thats my point
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#163 - 2014-09-11 08:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I know that RL harassment via someone's RL email containing carefully dug-up personal information about a real person in the game and including threats against named RL family members is allowed, because CCP did nothing about it when exactly that happened to me.

What kind of player are you? PvP? Carebear?

I have a feeling that the answer would have something in common with your results.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#164 - 2014-09-11 08:34:32 UTC
Literally this is a non issue that's being stirred by a few who don't play eve, but play a meta game thanks to a perceived "relaxed" rule set -- thinking that somehow excused their abhorrent human nature, but it's now under threat and they feel like one of their victims. Why is it that those who love seeing people react so much, are in of themselves some of the easiest people to get into emotional motion? These guys really need to HTFU.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#165 - 2014-09-11 08:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I know that RL harassment via someone's RL email containing carefully dug-up personal information about a real person in the game and including threats against named RL family members is allowed, because CCP did nothing about it when exactly that happened to me.

What kind of player are you? PvP? Carebear?

I have a feeling that the answer would have something in common with your results.


And what you just said is that in game actions justify attacking someone in real life, at least that's what it seems to me. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Wait, nevermind. I think you're agreeing that there is a double standard. Idk, I can't tell.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#166 - 2014-09-11 08:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Drago Shouna wrote:
I look on it like this..

Mittani was the high profile warning shot across the bow.

That warning shot has either been forgotten or ignored, and now the consequences are starting to hit.


All that this and the Mittens thing have established is that if something - anything - you do causes an outcry, say your goodbyes.

"Magic circle" analogies and "strict policy enforcement" are a farce. All that matters for them is PR: they want to look like they're enforcing the rules that are supposed to make EVE a secure environment, but they don't actually want to walk the walk unless they're going to look bad publicly.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#167 - 2014-09-11 08:38:11 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
'Real life' harassment can't even occur unless you know who the hell is on the other side of the EVE account.

Anything that occurred between Ero 1 and Sohkar happened behind the veil of internet anonymity - by definition 'not real life'.

People get their fricken ships popped all the time, and some low-functioning people get mad/cut themselves/kick the dog/beat their wife. Doesn't mean you ban the guy that popped him for 'crossing lines'. We aren't responsible for doing a damn psychoanalysis of everyone we encounter online. And seriously, 'empathy'? Its not a scammers business to give a crap about your personal problems - they just want you to hand over your ISK and your dignity as a bonus.

Shouldn't be CCPs either; even if they seem to want to assign themselves the role of emotion cop. Not a good strategy, and disingenuous too. Should someone REALLY get killed or kill themselves over EVE and lawsuits fly, CCP will back away from that **** and run for cover like a pack of rats. Better to stand on principle now, and accept that trying to regulate RL feelings when they provide 'avatars' to shield them from RL consequences - is just a dead end.

The BR amounts to two goddamn anonymous avatars scamming and willingly being scammed.

Let me illustrate: (and forgive me, Monk, if I'm misremembering this episode....)
Psychotic Monk at one point a couple years ago was actually doxed and telephoned at his home by an angry AWOX victim.
THAT is real life harassment. I'm not even sure if that particular AH got banned. After all, that was a couple years ago and CCP's joke rules are fluid things these days.

Sohkar, to you, me and everyone else is just Sohkar. His humiliation is limited to his fake-ass EVE in-game persona, and will not affect his 'real life' one whit beyond what he allows. He's said as much, himself. And in that sense, he is far more clear-thinking than the GMs. Scary, no?

It's funny, when I first heard about the sohkar incident and read all the threads, I assumed going in that it would be very, very bad. My mentality was, "let's hear a sociopath absolutely degrade another human being".

What I heard completely shocked me. Not only did the scammers say exactly 0 things that are insulting or personal, but I was laughing my ass off nearly the entire time. It saddens me to think those bonus rooms won't happen again.

They are literally no different than prank calls. It is in fact the best analogy to use.
For instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8w8vlECpVw&index=3&list=PL8ACD12CADB4A1ABC

I guess those radio hosts are also sociopaths, and clearly have tortured poor Mr. Bergis.

Hey guys.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#168 - 2014-09-11 08:38:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And what you just said is that in game actions justify attacking someone in real life, at least that's what it seems to me. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Wait, nevermind. I think you're agreeing that there is a double standard. Idk, I can't tell.

I'm agreeing that there's a double standard.

As a pvp player, I've had some mean things said to me over the years. Up to the point of threatening to **** my children (that I don't even have). Also, I want to know what kind of behavior I can and can't engage in, as per my example of a ransom victim telling me that paying my ransom would result in being unable to buy enough meals for a period of time, a few pages ago.

My goal is to see a clear line with regard to this process.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dave Stark
#169 - 2014-09-11 08:38:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I know that RL harassment via someone's RL email containing carefully dug-up personal information about a real person in the game and including threats against named RL family members is allowed, because CCP did nothing about it when exactly that happened to me.

What kind of player are you? PvP? Carebear?

I have a feeling that the answer would have something in common with your results.


And what you just said is that in game actions justify attacking someone in real life, at least that's what it seems to me. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Wait, nevermind. I think you're agreeing that there is a double standard. Idk, I can't tell.


he pretty much did, he basically implied ccp shouldn't enforce rules equally based up on your prefered ingame activity.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2014-09-11 08:39:00 UTC
Technically, it is possible to paint a bright line and say "do not cross". Navies do it with their submarines; in fact, they paint several lines.

There's "test depth", below which a submarine is never supposed to pass except in emergency or wartime.

Below that is "maximum operating depth", below which a submarine is never supposed to go, even in emergency or wartime. Popularly known as "never-exceed depth", for the obvious reason.

Then beyond that is "design depth", which is a conservative estimate of how deep a submarine can go and still remain intact.

And then ... there's "collapse depth", AKA "crush depth". That's the point where the submarine's structural integrity breaks down against external water pressure, the hull folds in on itself, and the crew's next stop is Davy Jones' metaphorical locker.

The thing is ... nobody knows exactly when any given submarine will hit its actual crush depth. It's different for every submarine, and can only really be known in hindsight, when it's too late to be any good to anyone. There are cases of submarines going past their design depth and coming back. There are too many variables to know for sure, so all the designers and testers and regulators can do is set a line that's well short of the most conservative guess and say "don't cross that line".

The equivalent here would be CCP setting a "test depth" that is so conservative that many EVE players would howl in protest, and reserving to itself the right to investigate any shenanigans that went past that very conservative line.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#171 - 2014-09-11 08:40:30 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ilaister wrote:
I'd say you missed it entirely.

Maybe. Which is why I'm asking a CCP employee for clarification on the matter.


It is simple. When in doubt, stay on the safer side, or just stop it. If you do it and you cross the line, HTFU and learn some empathy.

This is a game, not a place to harrass people in real life. If you think that there is a line, you're expected to stop and not get any closer. If you don't know where is the line, or can't judge yourself, stop playing EVE or face the consequences of any potential misjudgement.

Now, if you are asking where the line is in order to get as close to it as possible and discuss whether you crossed it or don't, I'd suggest you to biomass all your chars and remove yourself from EVE Online and its community.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#172 - 2014-09-11 08:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ilaister wrote:
I'd say you missed it entirely.

Maybe. Which is why I'm asking a CCP employee for clarification on the matter.


It is simple. When in doubt, stay on the safer side, or just stop it. If you do it and you cross the line, HTFU and learn some empathy.

This is a game, not a place to harrass people in real life. If you think that there is a line, you're expected to stop and not get any closer. If you don't know where is the line, or can't judge yourself, stop playing EVE or face the consequences of any potential misjudgement.

Now, if you are asking where the line is in order to get as close to it as possible and discuss whether you crossed it or don't, I'd suggest you to biomass all your chars and remove yourself from EVE Online and its community.

So if a player tells me that unless I remove a war declaration on his corporation, he will probably become agitated and beat his wife and children, should I remove the war declaration on his corporation?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
flower pot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#173 - 2014-09-11 08:44:18 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
[quote=Ilaister]I'd say you missed it entirely.

Maybe. Which is why I'm asking a CCP employee for clarification on the matter.


It is simple. When in doubt, stay on the safer side, or just stop it. If you do it and you cross the line, HTFU and learn some empathy.

And just where is this "safer side" you talking about? its a game, ships get blown up, ppl scam and so on so just where is this safe side
Anal Canal
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#174 - 2014-09-11 08:44:36 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
flower pot wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.




so what you are saying is you´re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you´re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.


Sure.

It's like a strip bar. You know what you're running and you know that while most customers are fine there's going to be a lot of creepers and pervs in the mix. It's too much hassle to sort out at the door so you just let them all in. When the pervs start whipping it out or saying disgusting things and upsetting the girls, then the bouncer comes over and throws them out. Or maybe not, maybe the perv is actually a celebrity or something, maybe he's just got one of those faces that fit, then you tell the girls to go back and and cool down and forget what happened.

The difference is the guy who owns the strip club knows (or at least, admits) what he's doing. If he really had a problem with the girls being harassed, well, why doesn't he just shut the place down and open a tea shop or something.


This is completely wrong! I have found out that going to a venue as you have mentioned with a score card and judging said performances such as an Olympic gymnastic event... is frowned on. (I am sorry Cherry, you didn't hit the landing, so it's just a 7.3)

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#175 - 2014-09-11 08:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
flower pot wrote:
It is simple. When in doubt, stay on the safer side, or just stop it. If you do it and you cross the line, HTFU and learn some empathy.

And just where is this "safer side" you talking about? its a game, ships get blown up, ppl scam and so on so just where is this safe side


See the examples in previous posts where this logic falls apart. Unless, of course, you believe that only people who play the game a certain way should be protected by CCP's rules, while those who play the game in a different way should be open season for doxxing and RL harassment. This is probably where CCP stands, though.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mira Robinson
#176 - 2014-09-11 08:47:46 UTC
Oh, I can't wait for the Minerbumping entry on this.

It's gonna be delicious.

It's gonna be all "grrrr emergent gameplay" and "grrr content creators".

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
M3PHIST0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2014-09-11 08:49:09 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
Oh, I can't wait for the Minerbumping entry on this.

It's gonna be delicious.

It's gonna be all "grrrr emergent gameplay" and "grrr content creators".

edit, old link
Col Duke Lacross
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2014-09-11 08:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Col Duke Lacross
Steppa Musana wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
'Real life' harassment can't even occur unless you know who the hell is on the other side of the EVE account.

Anything that occurred between Ero 1 and Sohkar happened behind the veil of internet anonymity - by definition 'not real life'.

People get their fricken ships popped all the time, and some low-functioning people get mad/cut themselves/kick the dog/beat their wife. Doesn't mean you ban the guy that popped him for 'crossing lines'. We aren't responsible for doing a damn psychoanalysis of everyone we encounter online. And seriously, 'empathy'? Its not a scammers business to give a crap about your personal problems - they just want you to hand over your ISK and your dignity as a bonus.

Shouldn't be CCPs either; even if they seem to want to assign themselves the role of emotion cop. Not a good strategy, and disingenuous too. Should someone REALLY get killed or kill themselves over EVE and lawsuits fly, CCP will back away from that **** and run for cover like a pack of rats. Better to stand on principle now, and accept that trying to regulate RL feelings when they provide 'avatars' to shield them from RL consequences - is just a dead end.

The BR amounts to two goddamn anonymous avatars scamming and willingly being scammed.

Let me illustrate: (and forgive me, Monk, if I'm misremembering this episode....)
Psychotic Monk at one point a couple years ago was actually doxed and telephoned at his home by an angry AWOX victim.
THAT is real life harassment. I'm not even sure if that particular AH got banned. After all, that was a couple years ago and CCP's joke rules are fluid things these days.

Sohkar, to you, me and everyone else is just Sohkar. His humiliation is limited to his fake-ass EVE in-game persona, and will not affect his 'real life' one whit beyond what he allows. He's said as much, himself. And in that sense, he is far more clear-thinking than the GMs. Scary, no?

It's funny, when I first heard about the sohkar incident and read all the threads, I assumed going in that it would be very, very bad. My mentality was, "let's hear a sociopath absolutely degrade another human being".

What I heard completely shocked me. Not only did the scammers say exactly 0 things that are insulting or personal, but I was laughing my ass off nearly the entire time. It saddens me to think those bonus rooms won't happen again.

They are literally no different than prank calls. It is in fact the best analogy to use.
For instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8w8vlECpVw&index=3&list=PL8ACD12CADB4A1ABC

I guess those radio hosts are also sociopaths, and clearly have tortured poor Mr. Bergis.


I think the difference is the player on one side that does singing ransoms and bonus rooms for the occational lols. Then the other player who solely plays EVE because it provides them the ability to freely manipulate total strangers into doing RL rediculous things with total anonymity or fear of being punished. Until now at least.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#179 - 2014-09-11 08:50:06 UTC
evepal wrote:
The police officer on the second visit told me not to get involved with the FPS tournament and to distance myself, i.e. to just stop. I can't, why? because that's my life. I've invested time into managing a team, no more than they've invested time into the assets that they've associated having fun with. You go ask a gambler who's selling his house to fuel his addiction, 'why?' and I'm pretty sure you'll get the same response. Very basic psychology, "in for a dime, in for a dollar".
The difference is still that the bonus room was voluntary. You may voluntarily accept the risk of bad stuff happening because of how important the game is to you, but that is not the same as voluntarily accepting the bad stuff.

If someone burns your house down, you're a victim. If you burn your house down because someone told you they'd give you a bigger better house if you did it, you're a fool.

evepal wrote:
"we can study the reason people don't walk away" completely negates your point "but that doesn't change the fact they can" in of itself.
Not in the slightest. Greed and regret cannot keep you in a chair the same way an armed police officer can.

evepal wrote:
Oh no, my word choice most certainly has ulterior motive! Word illuminati! Word illuminati! Or... I could have just used the word as it's perfectly acceptable and very common to do so... brb, going to 'receive' my aspirin.
If you really think that in a case where someone lost all their in-game possessions, whether those possesions were taken or given is just a minor semantic point, I really can't help you.

evepal wrote:
Ok, so you're just trolling for the sake of it, and not really wanting to contribute to the discussion, got it. Seeing as you have no fault with the conclusion, then there's really no purpose to "attack" anything else I have to say. Also, attack? Really? It's a civilised discussion, at least, I think so.
Pointing out the flaws in flawed views is itself a contribution. As for 'attack', really? Do you really not get that in this context an argument is not a shouting match and an attack is not a physical altercation?

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
flower pot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#180 - 2014-09-11 08:50:19 UTC
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909 wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
flower pot wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.




so what you are saying is you´re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you´re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.


Sure.

It's like a strip bar. You know what you're running and you know that while most customers are fine there's going to be a lot of creepers and pervs in the mix. It's too much hassle to sort out at the door so you just let them all in. When the pervs start whipping it out or saying disgusting things and upsetting the girls, then the bouncer comes over and throws them out. Or maybe not, maybe the perv is actually a celebrity or something, maybe he's just got one of those faces that fit, then you tell the girls to go back and and cool down and forget what happened.

The difference is the guy who owns the strip club knows (or at least, admits) what he's doing. If he really had a problem with the girls being harassed, well, why doesn't he just shut the place down and open a tea shop or something.


This is completely wrong! I have found out that going to a venue as you have mentioned with a score card and judging said performances such as an Olympic gymnastic event... is frowned on. (I am sorry Cherry, you didn't hit the landing, so it's just a 7.3)


so what you are saying let ppl do the "crime" that isn´t even clear what it is and then handle/deal with it? why not just have a clear rule and ppl that don´t like the rule can go and play something else