These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
M3PHIST0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-09-11 07:14:41 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
M3PHIST0 wrote:


Most coms are appalling, nobody forced these people to stay logged into coms. They chose to do so, so they could try to get their stuff back. Most people would have logged out, cut their losses and learned from it.


The scam is allowed. It would have been legit for them to tell the guy - sorry bro, it was all a scam, we took your isk, better luck next time. Pushing it to the next level and getting someone to do embarrassing things on coms in the false and vain hope of getting their own isk back is the problem. The good news is its easy to avoid the same pitfall. If you scam someone just be happy that you got their stuff, no need to rub it in or make them try and do humiliating stuff to get it back. It's just so easy to avoid entirely.


I'm not gunna try and say they didn't take too far in some instances. They probably did. All I'm saying is a Perma-ban for a "first time offence" is pretty stiff. A 3 month ban would send a good solid message.
flower pot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-09-11 07:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: flower pot
also, can we ever invite ppl to TS with the fear that anyone can now cry to CCP that they logged on to any TS and got harassed and CCP then ban anyone in that TS....
i for one i scared of letting ppl onto TS now
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-09-11 07:17:50 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Uh oh.

Mr Epeen Cool


No, I'm honestly hoping it doesn't come to that at all. If it happens again, the very first thing I'll do is go through the proper channels of the petition system, as I did last time, in the hope that CCP does what they're apparently committed to doing - making their online community a secure environment where real life harassment is not allowed to perpetuate.

I'm 100% down with that ideal. I just want to see them enforce it with consistency.

This particular situation though, I've already gotten more involved that I wanted to. I was really just gonna post that link to make people think, and then **** off but, I can't say I'm not annoyed with the lack of information and clarity here.


Sorry. I meant something else than you think with my 'Uh oh'. I posted quickly to save the quote.

You see, it struck me that you were posting with the wrong personality. You answered for Kaarous with the same back story as Kaarous so I naturally assumed you were actually Kaarous. Also, comparing doxxing to what I originally quoted (being banned for blowing up a ship) is also what I'd expect Kaarous to say.

I think you can see how I was confused.

But I'll tell you now. I'm going to be paying special attention to the posting from you two Blink

Mr Epeen Cool


I'm not keeping track of the whole conversation to be honest. It's essentially a repeat of the last one that was had back in March and if I wanted repeats, I'd turn on a radio. I probably responded to something somewhere that I thought meant something that it didn't actually mean as well, so, I'm just gonna move on and observe from a distance. Any action I may or may not take in response to any given scenario, I will take without further announcement or discussion with other players that I don't really know to begin with.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
flower pot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#144 - 2014-09-11 07:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: flower pot
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.




so what you are saying is you´re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you´re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#145 - 2014-09-11 07:23:34 UTC
flower pot wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.




so what you are saying is you´re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you´re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.


Great!

Can I have your stuff?

Mr Epeen Cool
Dave Stark
#146 - 2014-09-11 07:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Sibyyl wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


that's not ambiguous in the slightest. it simply says nothing. CCP want their cake and eat it.

I'll elaborate later, i have to get ready for work.



I'm sorry, Dave. There is no work. EVE is real.


I wish that were true.

Anyway, falcon is right in the fact that there needs to be flexibility. of course he is.

however if you want people to follow a set of rules, you actually need to tell people what the rules are.
this is a game built around a universe with a totally different set of rules, as such if you want people to work within a different ruleset you have to lay out those rules so people can work within them.

I'm not disputing CCP's right to ban people, but if you don't want to end up banning half your players [i'm going to point out that "half your players" is exaggeration, but people are dumb so i feel i have to point it out] every few months because they broke the rules.... tell them what the rules are so they know what not to do.

I'll be honest, the e1 thing, and now this, kinda put a dampener on this game for me. prior to the whole e1 debacle i was rather interested in the more underhand parts of the game. now i just look at it and think "shooting red crosses might be boring, but i'd rather get bored and quit than have 5 mins of fun and get banned" at least if eve bores to death it's the lesser evil of getting banned.

It'd be nice to have a bit more fun in eve, but being banned for what attracted me to eve... not exactly a motivation to have more fun in eve and get involved with other players.
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#147 - 2014-09-11 07:34:05 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
IIshira wrote:

I don't want to get banned for hurting someone's feelings when I blow up their ship...


If that was even remotely likely to be what happens, there'd be about 6 people subbed right now since the other 299,994 would have been banned.

Could you and your lickspittle Kaarous at least try to come up with something close to plausible to cry over. It's not that I don't like your tears. It's just that they're not as tasty when they're so easy to harvest.

Mr Epeen Cool


Sure. Let me know when you've been doxed and had your family threatened by players in the game, and CCP does nothing about it. I get what you're saying, I do, but the inconsistency is undeniable when you've experienced it first hand. I even put up the evidence of it for people to see and was dismissed as 'crying'. I assure you, I never cried a tear. The people responsible had a little visit from the police and, unfortunately, the rest is subject to a nondisclosure agreement, but I can tell you this much - the police gave me some information that will allow me to hold CCP fully accountable to the law should it ever happen again based on their own decisions in policy management so far.

So I'm not crying. I'm hoping I don't get doxed again but, there's also a small part of me that hopes I do. I love EVE, and I love CCP too. I love them so much that I just can't allow them to fall for the trap of double standards.


I was told by a miner that was popped that he would find me, enter my house with a rifle and then shoot me in the head. FYI, it was a Ret under 30M. So yeah, knives cut both ways. (Oh he also threatened any and all immediate family) So my point of this is, people say a lot of things, but trying to group everyone together as on aspect is just wrong. I like to eat pie, cake is tolerable. But you don't see me trying to remove ice cream. Once I rode a pony.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#148 - 2014-09-11 07:40:45 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Clara Pond wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
They stood next to the sign looking out at the long grass. Right next to them was a sign reading 'Danger, Minefield'


Do you think it's a problem that The Mittani got away with a one month ban for inciting widespread RL harassment, or that botters get multiple warnings, while these people are getting zero warning permabans for crossing an invisible line?

Why, in the face of such subjective and ill-defined offences, are zero-warning permabans justified?

Sorry I tried to keep your analogy going, but it doesn't really apply because the whole world is a minefield, but the mines only exist when people get upset.


Understand that CSM have next to nothing to do with enforcement and punishment so any opinions I have about various bans are just that, MY opinions.

If Mittens pulled that today? Yeah, gone, no deposit, no return.

They have, recently, shortened the chain and strikes for botters. Again, I have little tolerance for such and so have no problem shortening that leash even more. But that is a different department in CCP, I think.

So I guess that means that the current bans are consistent with my model.

And the whole world IS a minefield. The Real World has more laws than any lawyer can keep track of. More mistakes that you can make than anybody can track. So you avoid the big obvious ones that have signs on them. Take your chances with the rest. Falcon has been fairly steady and consistent. Cross lines, BOOM. I notice you didn't mention any lottery sites so I won't either.

m


This... just this.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2014-09-11 07:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
I'm going to summarise what I know.

I know that making people sing on coms for ransom is allowed, because Sky Fighters did it to a CCP dev just last year with no consequences.

I know that people have been banned for similar acts of ransoming in the style of the much debated Bonus Room, under the heading of RL harassment.

I know that RL harassment via someone's RL email containing carefully dug-up personal information about a real person in the game and including threats against named RL family members is allowed, because CCP did nothing about it when exactly that happened to me.

So....

Where does that leave us? What assurance do I have, playing this game, that some weirdo isn't actually going to hunt down my family and hurt them because I removed his space pixels from his possession, CCP?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#150 - 2014-09-11 07:49:52 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hello everyone,

We would like to remind the EVE community of our stance regarding the usage of EVE Online and assets, characters and items from within the game environment as leverage for the purpose of real life harassment.

As outlined in our previous announcement, this type of behavior lies in clear breach of our End User License Agreement, and as such we have a zero tolerance approach when dealing with these cases.

Our stance regarding this type of behavior has not changed since the last announcement, and any individuals who are found to be engaging in such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against their game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.

- F


Regarding the current situation can we discuss privately (Assuming this would be the smartest choice) the issue about prizes for a current contest that was in process of being transferred to a third party. I am are more than willing to follow through with said player added content however recent actions have reduced the value added experience. I realize that this would be a long shot, but even just attempting to proactively recover said contest deliverables would at least help enthrall the community with the completion of added content. I am more than willing to sit down and have a discussion about this on CCP time, assuming that it would be prior to the conclusion of said contest. Regardless, I am sorry I made a discussion about changing your hair. I think you need to increase the hue, change the shade, and make it a little bit more vivid. Less than Three.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#151 - 2014-09-11 07:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
It's double standards, that's all.

It seems that CCP sees a nutjob doxxing you and threatening your family after you blew him up as a misguided act by a poor, emotionally distressed victim. But if you've so much as idled in Ero's channel, it's guilt by association + permaban with prejudice.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#152 - 2014-09-11 07:55:11 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.


Share: Cite / link:
ha·rass (h-rs, hrs)
tr.v. ha·rassed, ha·rass·ing, ha·rass·es
1. To irritate or torment persistently.
2. To wear out; exhaust.
3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

"Harassment" isn't the issue. We harass each other in-game ALL THE TIME. A hell-camp is harassment. Suicide ganking is harassment. We've recently hell-camped some inhabitants of 5zxx-k until they are no-longer able to live in that system. (Thank you CCP, for the wonderful mordus legion ships, now in CFC control)

What we want to know is when it crosses the fourth wall into REAL LIFE harassment.

The people involved in the bonus room do not persistently target anyone over days or weeks. Nor do we follow anyone home or stalk anyone. Though I have no doubt that the tear collection is an intense experience, it is done in a single incident of scamming, and no one is forcing anyone to stay on our coms. People have left our coms on their own you know.

If you do not give clarification, there will be no end to the speculation, and that in itself can do more harm to your public image than any debate over rules and rule-skirting can.


If you don't know the answer, you've already crossed the line.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Dave Stark
#153 - 2014-09-11 07:57:47 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.


Share: Cite / link:
ha·rass (h-rs, hrs)
tr.v. ha·rassed, ha·rass·ing, ha·rass·es
1. To irritate or torment persistently.
2. To wear out; exhaust.
3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

"Harassment" isn't the issue. We harass each other in-game ALL THE TIME. A hell-camp is harassment. Suicide ganking is harassment. We've recently hell-camped some inhabitants of 5zxx-k until they are no-longer able to live in that system. (Thank you CCP, for the wonderful mordus legion ships, now in CFC control)

What we want to know is when it crosses the fourth wall into REAL LIFE harassment.

The people involved in the bonus room do not persistently target anyone over days or weeks. Nor do we follow anyone home or stalk anyone. Though I have no doubt that the tear collection is an intense experience, it is done in a single incident of scamming, and no one is forcing anyone to stay on our coms. People have left our coms on their own you know.

If you do not give clarification, there will be no end to the speculation, and that in itself can do more harm to your public image than any debate over rules and rule-skirting can.


If you don't know the answer, you've already crossed the line.


not really, it's a valid question.

the line between what's "real life harrassment" and just "harrassment" needs to be answered since 90% of eve is just flat out "harrassment" - it's a game based on war where harrassment is an effective tactic.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#154 - 2014-09-11 08:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
flower pot wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.




so what you are saying is you´re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you´re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.


Sure.

It's like a strip bar. You know what you're running and you know that while most customers are fine there's going to be a lot of creepers and pervs in the mix. It's too much hassle to sort out at the door so you just let them all in. When the pervs start whipping it out or saying disgusting things and upsetting the girls, then the bouncer comes over and throws them out. Or maybe not, maybe the perv is actually a celebrity or something, maybe he's just got one of those faces that fit, then you tell the girls to go back and and cool down and forget what happened.

The difference is the guy who owns the strip club knows (or at least, admits) what he's doing. If he really had a problem with the girls being harassed, well, why doesn't he just shut the place down and open a tea shop or something.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#155 - 2014-09-11 08:03:58 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Gee, why not just stop humiliating people on coms entirely? It's not like "bonus rooms" are an essential part of the game. Stick to playing to the game and chatting in local, and avoid all doubt.


Since when is singing songs humiliating?


It is to the rl shy introverted person behind the character that can't sing.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Dave Stark
#156 - 2014-09-11 08:04:10 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
flower pot wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.




so what you are saying is you´re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you´re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.


Sure.

It's like a strip bar. You know what you're running and you know that while most customers are fine there's going to be a lot of creepers and pervs in the mix. It's too much hassle to sort out at the door so you just let them all in. When the pervs start whipping it out or saying disgusting upsetting the girls, then the bouncer comes over and throws them out. Or maybe not, maybe the perv is actually a celebrity or something, then you tell the girls to go back and cool down and forget what happened.

The difference is the guy who owns the strip club knows (or at least, admits) what he's doing. If he really had a problem with the girls being harassed, well, why does he just shut the place down and open a tea shop or something.


execpt you know before you go in to a strip bar that you're not allowed to do that ****.
that's all we want to know here; want can't we do once we've got beyond the log in screen.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#157 - 2014-09-11 08:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
I mean really, all of the **** that has caused ~outcries~ by the community (bonus room, suicidegate or whatever) pales in comparison to someone being threatened by somebody who actually goes to the lengths of finding an RL address and the names of the person's family members yet if the latter happens, GMs do not care, senior GMs do not care and they'll simply tell you to contact law enforcement.

So by CCP's standards of what constitutes harassment:

Making someone fear for the safety of their family members and themselves = investigating is :effort:, don't care, maybe law enforcement (ahahahaha, nope) will deal with it we dunno?

Making someone upset on teamspeak (or being remotely involved with it) = GMs spend months investigating this, decide that you are a very bad person and a monster, here's a permaban

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Dave Stark
#158 - 2014-09-11 08:15:09 UTC
Is teamspeak considered "real life" because I wouldn't have considered it such.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#159 - 2014-09-11 08:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
Remiel Pollard wrote:

I know that RL harassment via someone's RL email containing carefully dug-up personal information about a real person in the game and including threats against named RL family members is allowed, because CCP did nothing about it when exactly that happened to me.

Yeah, what in the hell, right?

When I was very new I did not appreciate the nature of EVE, and ended up mouthing off to the wrong nutjob. This freak found my Facebook and not only garnished me with personal insults, but even starting messaging my friends and colleagues. Thankfully he did not say anything too damning to them, and most of my friends found it amusing enough.

I actually biomassed the character over it, because I had no interest in dealing with that psycho for the rest of my EVE career. Hell, I'm only willing to mention this because I'm using a temporary contract/trade alt that I've doubled up as a forum alt. The dude is so ****** he'd probably start at me again if he saw me post this with my main.

When I reported him for it, CCPs position was that they could not technically link the two together, despite the timing being beyond coincidental and several spelling/grammatical errors that combined could not be a coincidence either. Let alone his syntax. While I can understand their leniancy when the evidence isn't truly concrete, they didn't so much as taken any sort of action against him and there responses to me were typically a couple dozen words at best.

I'm not really sure if I can blame them or not; for all I know they did look deep into it and just couldn't make the link, but it sure has left a real bitter taste in my mouth.

Fortunately for him, he stopped playing EVE some time ago already, or it was just an alt that's gone inactive. Now that I understand how the game works, he'd have been on the wrong side of tens of billions of ISK worth of mercenaries and hunters Lol.

Hey guys.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#160 - 2014-09-11 08:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
'Real life' harassment can't even occur unless you know who the hell is on the other side of the EVE account.

Anything that occurred between Ero 1 and Sohkar happened behind the veil of internet anonymity - by definition 'not real life'.

People get their fricken ships popped all the time, and some low-functioning people get mad/cut themselves/kick the dog/beat their wife. Doesn't mean you ban the guy that popped him for 'crossing lines'. We aren't responsible for doing a damn psychoanalysis of everyone we encounter online. And seriously, 'empathy'? Its not a scammers business to give a crap about your personal problems - they just want you to hand over your ISK and your dignity as a bonus.

Shouldn't be CCPs either; even if they seem to want to assign themselves the role of emotion cop. Not a good strategy, and disingenuous too. Should someone REALLY get killed or kill themselves over EVE and lawsuits fly, CCP will back away from that **** and run for cover like a pack of rats. Better to stand on principle now, and accept that trying to regulate RL feelings when they provide 'avatars' to shield them from RL consequences - is just a dead end.

The BR amounts to two goddamn anonymous avatars scamming and willingly being scammed.

Let me illustrate: (and forgive me, Monk, if I'm misremembering this episode....)
Psychotic Monk at one point a couple years ago was actually doxed and telephoned at his home by an angry AWOX victim.
THAT is real life harassment. I'm not even sure if that particular AH got banned. After all, that was a couple years ago and CCP's joke rules are fluid things these days.

Sohkar, to you, me and everyone else is just Sohkar. His humiliation is limited to his fake-ass EVE in-game persona, and will not affect his 'real life' one whit beyond what he allows. He's said as much, himself. And in that sense, he is far more clear-thinking than the GMs. Scary, no?