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Dodging Wardecs

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2014-09-10 09:54:18 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
It's not annoying for me, I just laugh at the fact that you just wasted 50m Big smile

If you want it to stop, just stop scrolling through the offices in a station and putting a wardec on every corp listed.

My own personal thoughts are that nobody should be able to wardec another corp without due cause, ie: If a member is killed due to ganking or gate camped etc, then the members corp can decide if they want to wardec the offending party's corp.

The cost also should reflect the seriousness of it, make it a minimum of 100m and another 5m per member of the corp you are about to wardec.

The whole system is biased toward players like the op who's sole purpose in life is to grief others, if they lose money or "lols" tough, they get what they deserve.

I won't close my corp, but I will laugh as I fly past you on an alt carrying on near normally.



We do always have a due case.. you are flying in space .. with a ships that is not burning.. in a game that is made to be ruthless and violent. You are ofending the gods of eve and that is enough reason for us to war dec ANYONE

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2014-09-10 09:57:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



Not true... we have pushed to collapse level several high sec groups in contracts. I have NEVER ever seen CODE force the collapse or disbanding of any group.

We are paid to hurt the corps and alliances, not to get irrelevant kills. Suicide gankers have ZERO effect on a group of people, because leaving the group would not make you safer, therefore they cannot force a large high sec group to disapear (and yes there are some high sec groups that are big enough to be called large)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-09-10 09:58:47 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



Not true... we have pushed to collapse level several high sec groups in contracts. I have NEVER ever seen CODE force the collapse or disbanding of any group.

We are paid to hurt the corps and alliances, not to get irrelevant kills. Suicide gankers have ZERO effect on a group of people, because leaving the group would not make you safer, therefore they cannot force a large high sec group to disapear (and yes there are some high sec groups that are big enough to be called large)


I want to agree with you, because I like you guys, but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. CODE have, in fact, been responsible for disbanding various corporations.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2014-09-10 10:01:40 UTC
Torneach Structor wrote:
I think I read a post earlier about how the whole thing should be scrapped and that a new team should get to work on it - I forgot who posted that, but it really is the best way to go if anything's to be done.

As it stands, it's really a simple mechanic - pay the police to look the other way while you try and bash another group's collective face in. Very simple and effective in its aims: pay money to get people to shoot at.

The simplicity is, however, the wardec mechanic's greatest weakness. One one hand, it would be more interesting to require some kind of casus belli for a war to be initiated. On the other, however, it really would inhibit those players involved in hisec war corporations the ability to do what they do. Whether you think that what they do is honorable/right and proper/good doesn't really matter - they need to be able to do their thing as well.

But going back to the point about a new team working from scratch on a new wardec mechanic: it really does seem that the current paradigm leaves many with a bitter taste in their mouths. It's easy to avoid a wardec, but it's also easy to initiate one, which can in turn be avoided just like the last one. Wasted money for the aggressors, and wasted time and effort for the defenders.

So, really, the current system doesn't work.

In a game with unlimited resources, what is the point of a war? If another mining corporation mines out your corporation's favorite system, you can just go one system over, or wait until tomorrow. And mission corporations have no effect on each other. Incursions do have hissyfits over killing the mothership "too soon" or whatever, but other than that, they just exist around each other.

The fuel of warfare is competition and conflicting interests. When neither are present, wars are reduced to "just for kicks" or "killboard padding", which results in the current situation - specialized wardec corporations launching dozens of wars against other corporations, leading to either disbandment and reformation, whining, quitting, and so on.

As it stands, wars in EVE have no useful purpose. Until that's changed, things will be the same.



It works, and well enough that we spend dozens of billions every week and we play in this way because we find it more fun and give us more entretainment than 0.0 stupidity.

It is working, just need minor tunnings. There shoudl be more reasons for players to NOT be in NPC corps and to organize into larger corps. There shoudl be more reasons for conflict in high sec ( more than simple pocos). Wars shoudl follow you if you leave your corp.

IF all that is made, then you could implement some form of limit on the number of wars ( soemthing like not over 50 wars)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#105 - 2014-09-10 10:12:20 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



Not true... we have pushed to collapse level several high sec groups in contracts. I have NEVER ever seen CODE force the collapse or disbanding of any group.

We are paid to hurt the corps and alliances, not to get irrelevant kills. Suicide gankers have ZERO effect on a group of people, because leaving the group would not make you safer, therefore they cannot force a large high sec group to disapear (and yes there are some high sec groups that are big enough to be called large)


I want to agree with you, because I like you guys, but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. CODE have, in fact, been responsible for disbanding various corporations.


Continual war-decs certainly can erode alliances and corps. seen it happen. Even to the point that a corp will leave an alliance. But they are continual war-decs a one off war-dec won't achieve those results.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2014-09-10 10:14:26 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



Not true... we have pushed to collapse level several high sec groups in contracts. I have NEVER ever seen CODE force the collapse or disbanding of any group.

We are paid to hurt the corps and alliances, not to get irrelevant kills. Suicide gankers have ZERO effect on a group of people, because leaving the group would not make you safer, therefore they cannot force a large high sec group to disapear (and yes there are some high sec groups that are big enough to be called large)


I want to agree with you, because I like you guys, but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. CODE have, in fact, been responsible for disbanding various corporations.


Continual war-decs certainly can erode alliances and corps. seen it happen. Even to the point that a corp will leave an alliance. But they are continual war-decs a one off war-dec won't achieve those results.



You say that, but again, just because you haven't seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But, we were talking about CODE getting corps to disband without wardecs, not what you can and can't achieve with wardecs. That most certainly does happen, and the evidence is in the various corps they've stolen, and subsequently disbanded.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#107 - 2014-09-10 10:20:13 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:



You say that, but again, just because you haven't seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But, we were talking about CODE getting corps to disband without wardecs, not what you can and can't achieve with wardecs. That most certainly does happen, and the evidence is in the various corps they've stolen, and subsequently disbanded.



Well the thread is about dodging war-decs.

Find it hard to believe CODE could get a large organisation to disband without the use of war-decs. Although I can believe they are capable of achieving that with small organisations. They're also capable of driving individuals out of the game, especially if they keep targeting the same individuals.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#108 - 2014-09-10 10:24:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



No the WD will not be useless at it's job. Infact if it closes the WD'd Corp. It has infact done it's job, and you have technically won the war.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#109 - 2014-09-10 10:25:14 UTC
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Seneca Auran
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2014-09-10 10:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Seneca Auran
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



Not true... we have pushed to collapse level several high sec groups in contracts. I have NEVER ever seen CODE force the collapse or disbanding of any group.

We are paid to hurt the corps and alliances, not to get irrelevant kills. Suicide gankers have ZERO effect on a group of people, because leaving the group would not make you safer, therefore they cannot force a large high sec group to disapear (and yes there are some high sec groups that are big enough to be called large)


I dunno, saying that you pushed a group to collapse implies that they had sufficient members and assets that attempting to fight/ride the war out was considered a better option than disbanding and reforming, up until they couldn't take it anymore. In which case fine, that's war decs doing exactly what was intended.

But the original complaint is that it's too easy for people to just disband their corp and reform to dodge a war dec, which implies that they don't have the numbers or assets to make doing so a problem. And if that's the case, it's hard to view complaining about it as anything more than the equivalent of saying, "Game mechanics should punish people who have nothing to lose for refusing to pad my killboards!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2014-09-10 10:28:55 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



No the WD will not be useless at it's job. Infact if it closes the WD'd Corp. It has infact done it's job, and you have technically won the war.


The organisation will continue intact under another name. You havent won you have simply made the change a name.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2014-09-10 10:30:05 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:



You say that, but again, just because you haven't seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But, we were talking about CODE getting corps to disband without wardecs, not what you can and can't achieve with wardecs. That most certainly does happen, and the evidence is in the various corps they've stolen, and subsequently disbanded.



Well the thread is about dodging war-decs.

Find it hard to believe CODE could get a large organisation to disband without the use of war-decs. Although I can believe they are capable of achieving that with small organisations. They're also capable of driving individuals out of the game, especially if they keep targeting the same individuals.


I've driven people out of the game too. So what? If I didn't do it, someone else was going to. Some people who play EVE are the kind of people that were always going to quit anyway because they don't even bother to try to understand the nature of EVE.

That, and qq'ing in local entertains me.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#113 - 2014-09-10 10:41:37 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:



You say that, but again, just because you haven't seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But, we were talking about CODE getting corps to disband without wardecs, not what you can and can't achieve with wardecs. That most certainly does happen, and the evidence is in the various corps they've stolen, and subsequently disbanded.



Well the thread is about dodging war-decs.

Find it hard to believe CODE could get a large organisation to disband without the use of war-decs. Although I can believe they are capable of achieving that with small organisations. They're also capable of driving individuals out of the game, especially if they keep targeting the same individuals.


I've driven people out of the game too. So what? If I didn't do it, someone else was going to. Some people who play EVE are the kind of people that were always going to quit anyway because they don't even bother to try to understand the nature of EVE.

That, and qq'ing in local entertains me.



There's a difference between driving people out of the game intentionally and driving people out of the game unintentionally through just playing the game. Now I'm not saying CODE do it intentionally, but their gaming style will have that result if they keep targeting the same individuals.

The nature of EVE, what is that exactly? Seems to me that means different things to different people.

There certainly is an elitist element in EVE, that think it's great to play EVE because it's tough, and that perception of EVE does actually attract some players to EVE.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#114 - 2014-09-10 10:43:18 UTC
These threads are just for venting frustrations, nothing more. Mission runners complaining of getting ganked and merc wannabes demanding more free targets are the same in my book. Bunch of whiners.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2014-09-10 10:47:27 UTC
Good Posting wrote:
These threads are just for venting frustrations, nothing more. Mission runners complaining of getting ganked and merc wannabes demanding more free targets are the same in my book. Bunch of whiners.


Ugh, this again??

There is always someone whining about wardecs, but, I suggest you read the thread before jumping to conclusions.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Good Posting
Doomheim
#116 - 2014-09-10 10:56:19 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Good Posting wrote:
These threads are just for venting frustrations, nothing more. Mission runners complaining of getting ganked and merc wannabes demanding more free targets are the same in my book. Bunch of whiners.


Ugh, this again??

There is always someone whining about wardecs, but, I suggest you read the thread before jumping to conclusions.


I did read the thread and the only thing different from the last one of the past week is that i'm only with my shorts on and the last week i was full clothed.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2014-09-10 10:59:53 UTC
Good Posting wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Good Posting wrote:
These threads are just for venting frustrations, nothing more. Mission runners complaining of getting ganked and merc wannabes demanding more free targets are the same in my book. Bunch of whiners.


Ugh, this again??

There is always someone whining about wardecs, but, I suggest you read the thread before jumping to conclusions.


I did read the thread and the only thing different from the last one of the past week is that i'm only with my shorts on and the last week i was full clothed.


So... you didn't read last week's either?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#118 - 2014-09-10 11:01:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


As for a cooldown for someone leaving to avoid the wardec, no I can't agree with that, it's far too restrictive and regardless how you look at it, it's a massive penalty on an individual.




So wardecs will continue to be useless at their job. Honestly, if you want to damage an organisation you are better off suicide ganking.



No the WD will not be useless at it's job. Infact if it closes the WD'd Corp. It has infact done it's job, and you have technically won the war.


The organisation will continue intact under another name. You havent won you have simply made the change a name.


You WD'd a Corp. That Corp no longer exists. Job done. Just because "another" organisation emerges to take an opportunity to fill the hole, you created. Does not mean the WD failed in its task.

I'm with the OP on this. It is stupid to have restriction in one direction (re applying to corp) and not having restriction in the other direction. (creating / applying to a corp). I do not believe in restricting movement from a WD'd corp, but it should have at least the same consequence for applying to ALL Corp. It would stop a Corp avoiding a WD without meaningful consequences.



Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#119 - 2014-09-10 11:09:08 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:

You WD'd a Corp. That Corp no longer exists. Job done. Just because "another" organisation emerges to take an opportunity to fill the hole, you created. Does not mean the WD failed in its task.



That is literally what it means, yes. Wardecs do not exist to make people corp hop, to suggest that is the case is pure speciousness. They exist to allow you to attack the people you decced without CONCORD interference.

If dodging is permitted, wardecs do not perform their intended function.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seneca Auran
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#120 - 2014-09-10 11:15:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:

You WD'd a Corp. That Corp no longer exists. Job done. Just because "another" organisation emerges to take an opportunity to fill the hole, you created. Does not mean the WD failed in its task.



That is literally what it means, yes. Wardecs do not exist to make people corp hop, to suggest that is the case is pure speciousness. They exist to allow you to attack the people you decced without CONCORD interference.

If dodging is permitted, wardecs do not perform their intended function.


Sure they do. War Declarations target corporations, not individuals. So if the corporation disbands, congratulations, you've destroyed an entire corporation without firing a shot.