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I am glad CCP loves their log files, I totally didn't want that space

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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#21 - 2014-09-10 03:54:19 UTC
I don't know what's worse, the attempted denial of the irrefutable superior SSD performance, or the implication that SSDs and HDDs are an either/or proposition.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-09-10 04:22:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
It's neither, Crumps. It's, "My HDD works just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A Ferrari will sure get me to the local supermarket a lot faster than my Toyota as well but... well, you can see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-09-10 04:44:37 UTC
Ursula Thrace wrote:
i just checked both directories (running 2 accounts) on my 'puter and they're taking up a whopping 40MB of space. omg! what will i do? seriously, please explain to me why is this an issue?


That would be about the size of a CD quality MP3.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-09-10 04:47:58 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Jack Tronic wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Ursula Thrace wrote:
i just checked both directories (running 2 accounts) on my 'puter and they're taking up a whopping 40MB of space. omg! what will i do? seriously, please explain to me why is this an issue?



How old are your PCs that a 40mb folder is a problem?
I bought one of the small HD's, when I had my box built, and it's still, like, 3tb....


Not everybody uses inferior HDs.


80GB SSDs ftw!


3tb > 80gb..... by, like, a lot.


Yes it is bigger but booting and playing eve on an SSD will have certain performance advantages.
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#25 - 2014-09-10 05:17:34 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Jack Tronic wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Ursula Thrace wrote:
i just checked both directories (running 2 accounts) on my 'puter and they're taking up a whopping 40MB of space. omg! what will i do? seriously, please explain to me why is this an issue?



How old are your PCs that a 40mb folder is a problem?
I bought one of the small HD's, when I had my box built, and it's still, like, 3tb....


Not everybody uses inferior HDs.


80GB SSDs ftw!


3tb > 80gb..... by, like, a lot.


Yes it is bigger but booting and playing eve on an SSD will have certain performance advantages.


Really? Do tell. Because I have upgrade space in my tower.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#26 - 2014-09-10 05:24:06 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It's neither, Crumps. It's, "My HDD works just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A Ferrari will sure get me to the local supermarket a lot faster than my Toyota as well but... well, you can see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.
A more apt comparison would be to replace the Ferrari with the Toyota and the Toyota with a horse and cart.

Sure, fixing unbroken things is bad, but on the other hand, times do change.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-09-10 05:34:31 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It's neither, Crumps. It's, "My HDD works just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A Ferrari will sure get me to the local supermarket a lot faster than my Toyota as well but... well, you can see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.
A more apt comparison would be to replace the Ferrari with the Toyota and the Toyota with a horse and cart.

Sure, fixing unbroken things is bad, but on the other hand, times do change.


Oh come on, not even close. My hard drive still boots Windows in full in under 6 seconds. That's not even enough time to get my morning coffee. EVE boots even faster, for me anyway. Definitely not a good comparison. "Times change" is no reason to switch from something that works just. Upgrading to 'faster' stuff just because 'times change' and it's the 'latest thing'....


C'mon man, I ain't no hipster. Don't get me wrong, I actually intend to get an SSD as a caching drive pretty soon. I built this PC about this time last year and it's been undergoing gradual upgrades ever since. However, I built what I needed, and even today, I don't need more than what I had a year ago. Everything else is just frills - fancy stuff for the sake of being fancy. And that's all an SSD is to me. It literally provides me no definable advantage that I either care about or need.


Now, if my current hardware started to become more hindering than useful, then yes, I would NEED to upgrade it. As it is though, everything I do on a PC, right now, is doable within a timely fashion.


But, what do I know, I was born in the 80s during a recession. P

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#28 - 2014-09-10 05:34:46 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It's neither, Crumps. It's, "My HDD works just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A Ferrari will sure get me to the local supermarket a lot faster than my Toyota as well but... well, you can see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.
A more apt comparison would be to replace the Ferrari with the Toyota and the Toyota with a horse and cart.

Sure, fixing unbroken things is bad, but on the other hand, times do change.


Actually.... as a hardcore petrolhead, I'm going to point out that MOST Ferraris are hideously unreliable as everyday transportation. The F355 is the only one you can trust to start up and run, every morning.
458 Italias and 599 GTB Fioranos are beautiful works of art, but they aren't meant to be run more than a couple times a month.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#29 - 2014-09-10 07:00:16 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Oh come on, not even close. My hard drive still boots Windows in full in under 6 seconds. That's not even enough time to get my morning coffee. EVE boots even faster, for me anyway. Definitely not a good comparison. "Times change" is no reason to switch from something that works just. Upgrading to 'faster' stuff just because 'times change' and it's the 'latest thing'....


C'mon man, I ain't no hipster. Don't get me wrong, I actually intend to get an SSD as a caching drive pretty soon. I built this PC about this time last year and it's been undergoing gradual upgrades ever since. However, I built what I needed, and even today, I don't need more than what I had a year ago. Everything else is just frills - fancy stuff for the sake of being fancy. And that's all an SSD is to me. It literally provides me no definable advantage that I either care about or need.


You are absolutely right about SSD. Let me explain.

I bought 120GB SSD and installed OS on it. It booted a couple of seconds faster and it copies files from USB faster, that's for sure. But other than that it had no major performance boost in everyday use.

Now, you have to understand that SSD has a limited amount of write operations to it. It's mainly about the limitation of the controller that handles memory management. My brother's SSD died just barely out of warranty covered time (2 years) and I did a bit of research about why that happened. The absolute worst thing you can do to your SSD is to install Windows on it. Windows by itself, without any software running on it, does a huge amount of writes mainly to log files that serve no real purpose anyway. Temporary patch installation files, prefetch files, thumbnail cache files, font cache files, search indexing files, and all of the system logs are easily eating up gigabytes of space.

The software tends to use system partition for many things. Some software allows you to manage where you want to place its temporary/cache files, but not all do. Although there's a lot of useful stuff in App Data and your User's folder, a large majority of data there is pure junk used once for some operation and then discarded. There's a couple of gigabytes there as well. As a software developer I cringe every time I see (during clean up) how many junk files various applications generate.

Anyway, I've moved my OS away from the SSD for that reason alone. 1-2 seconds faster boot, or a dozen of seconds faster file copy from USB does not justify the price of wearing out the SSD.



Now, I found an excellent use for it where its performance is utilized perfectly. I'm an e-commerce developer and the system I'm working in has some 15,000 PHP files in its default installation. Each installation comes with about 150 to 200 database tables (depending on the version and features). I have dozens of projects in their separate installations with databases to follow. So, I've dedicated SSD to Apache and MySQL and it really does wonders... and I can justify wearing down an SSD for work since I'm paid for it.

TL;DR
SSD are purely a vanity item for most of the casual computer users. It's still an expensive and unreliable piece of equipment with short expiry date. The only justifiable use of an SSD is if your work benefits from its performance boost over regular HDD.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-09-10 07:10:58 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Computer stuff.


Everything I know about computers, I know from my brother's expertise, and he has no shortage of that. I picked all the parts of my PC based on everything I'd learned from him, then I sent him the list before ordering and asked him, what do you think? (the case in that list says it includes a 500W PSU, but they forgot to send it, so I went to the store I ordered from on the day I wanted to build it and told them, and they gave me a 600W instead.)

"It's great, the only thing I would do differently is an SSD but you're not running a server, you're just gaming and writing, so that's pretty perfect actually." And for $854, including delivery, I had a machine capable of full 1080p@60Hz HD gaming for every game I enjoy. I had to put it all together myself, but one I'd done that, I was finally able to run EVE on full graphics settings as opposed to the lowest settings I was using to play on a hackjob of a Compaq laptop. Anyway, I'm not an expert like my brother, but based on what I've learned studying up on them myself, after his advise, what you just said, it all clicks with what I thought.

On my brother's advice, I'll be getting a small SSD for caching, and that's pretty much all it will do.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-09-10 07:18:26 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It's neither, Crumps. It's, "My HDD works just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A Ferrari will sure get me to the local supermarket a lot faster than my Toyota as well but... well, you can see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.
A more apt comparison would be to replace the Ferrari with the Toyota and the Toyota with a horse and cart.

Sure, fixing unbroken things is bad, but on the other hand, times do change.


Actually.... as a hardcore petrolhead, I'm going to point out that MOST Ferraris are hideously unreliable as everyday transportation. The F355 is the only one you can trust to start up and run, every morning.
458 Italias and 599 GTB Fioranos are beautiful works of art, but they aren't meant to be run more than a couple times a month.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_FF

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-09-10 08:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Oh come on, not even close. My hard drive still boots Windows in full in under 6 seconds. That's not even enough time to get my morning coffee. EVE boots even faster, for me anyway. Definitely not a good comparison. "Times change" is no reason to switch from something that works just. Upgrading to 'faster' stuff just because 'times change' and it's the 'latest thing'....


C'mon man, I ain't no hipster. Don't get me wrong, I actually intend to get an SSD as a caching drive pretty soon. I built this PC about this time last year and it's been undergoing gradual upgrades ever since. However, I built what I needed, and even today, I don't need more than what I had a year ago. Everything else is just frills - fancy stuff for the sake of being fancy. And that's all an SSD is to me. It literally provides me no definable advantage that I either care about or need.


You are absolutely right about SSD. Let me explain.

I bought 120GB SSD and installed OS on it. It booted a couple of seconds faster and it copies files from USB faster, that's for sure. But other than that it had no major performance boost in everyday use.

Now, you have to understand that SSD has a limited amount of write operations to it. It's mainly about the limitation of the controller that handles memory management. My brother's SSD died just barely out of warranty covered time (2 years) and I did a bit of research about why that happened. The absolute worst thing you can do to your SSD is to install Windows on it. Windows by itself, without any software running on it, does a huge amount of writes mainly to log files that serve no real purpose anyway. Temporary patch installation files, prefetch files, thumbnail cache files, font cache files, search indexing files, and all of the system logs are easily eating up gigabytes of space.

The software tends to use system partition for many things. Some software allows you to manage where you want to place its temporary/cache files, but not all do. Although there's a lot of useful stuff in App Data and your User's folder, a large majority of data there is pure junk used once for some operation and then discarded. There's a couple of gigabytes there as well. As a software developer I cringe every time I see (during clean up) how many junk files various applications generate.

Anyway, I've moved my OS away from the SSD for that reason alone. 1-2 seconds faster boot, or a dozen of seconds faster file copy from USB does not justify the price of wearing out the SSD.



Now, I found an excellent use for it where its performance is utilized perfectly. I'm an e-commerce developer and the system I'm working in has some 15,000 PHP files in its default installation. Each installation comes with about 150 to 200 database tables (depending on the version and features). I have dozens of projects in their separate installations with databases to follow. So, I've dedicated SSD to Apache and MySQL and it really does wonders... and I can justify wearing down an SSD for work since I'm paid for it.

TL;DR
SSD are purely a vanity item for most of the casual computer users. It's still an expensive and unreliable piece of equipment with short expiry date. The only justifiable use of an SSD is if your work benefits from its performance boost over regular HDD.


For most casual users SSD's are a vanity, but those users also cannot tell you the make and model of the cheap laptop they bought. For any "advanced" usge (outside of facebook, twitter and whatever social thingies) a correctly selected SSD is almost a must. "But they are unreliable, have horrible warranty and just break down" you might say and you would be correct when talking about cheap consumer-grade glorified memory sticks.

The memory cells in bad drives are TLC (triple-level cells) which was deemed such a bad technology that it was used only and ONLY in memory sticks for 15 years. It's cheap, highly volatile and wears out fast, perfect for throw-away solutions, not so good for continued usage. Any SSD worth buying has always been SLC or MLC depending on the speed you want and capacity you need. Price difference is minimal, at around 9-20% when going from 2yr warranty TLC to a 5yr warranty MLC depending on the manufacturer.

What about the random crap Windows and random programs keep writing on the SSD? The cheapest 120 GiB TLC drive made from non-broken cells will croak under 40 GiB / day in about 2,5 years. Do programs create this much workload on a normal usage situation? No, they don't outside of installing a fresh version of Windows. A 128 GiB MLC drive will continue to work for 9 years. Double the drive size (250GiB and 256GiB respectively) and you're looking at 6 and 17 years.

SSD is worth the money when building a modern computer and should always be included in a build which is budgeted at over $600 before peripherals. Going form an i3 to an i5 will cost you the same but give neglible performance boost compared to going from HDD to SSD.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-09-10 08:14:32 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
For any "advanced" usge (outside of facebook, twitter and whatever social thingies) a correctly selected SSD is almost a must.


I just linked my build above, explained what I get out of it, and you go and write this silly nonsense?

You should stop drinking. Seriously. I know I'm being a hypocrite by writing this because I'm drinking right now, but, you clearly can't handle it. You're going to spill something and THAT IS HOW YOU GET ANTS!!!!

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#34 - 2014-09-10 08:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Tech stuff


Hmm... I might re-visit the info on MLC and SLC and see the progress since last year when I bought my SSD. Thanks for the info Blink
But I still don't think that the performance boost is worth the price for any non professional usage. Smile
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#35 - 2014-09-10 08:39:59 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:



Did you know bypassing the launcher altogether is the best option.



FTFY
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-09-10 08:43:17 UTC
I would just like to say that I've never had a problem with the launcher. Not one, ever. Even when the launcher was changed, I had no issues.

I can haz a medal naow?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#37 - 2014-09-10 12:24:35 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I would just like to say that I've never had a problem with the launcher. Not one, ever. Even when the launcher was changed, I had no issues.

I can haz a medal naow?


Same here. Works flawlessly ... every time.
WASPY69
Xerum.
#38 - 2014-09-10 12:44:55 UTC
Question remains though.... Does all those log files show anything?

This signature intentionally left blank
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#39 - 2014-09-10 13:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I actually intend to get an SSD as a caching drive pretty soon
All those other words, trying to hide this little gem.

P


Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
B-but muh write cycles
The expected lifetime of an SSD with an OS on it is a few years, pessimistically. The expected lifetime of a particular PC is a few years, pessimistically.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Vyl Vit
#40 - 2014-09-10 15:34:53 UTC
Give that recycle bin a good workout.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
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