These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Crius state of play

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#181 - 2014-09-08 19:58:30 UTC
There is only one cost index per system, and it is applied whether you are in a factory station, or an administrative station, or a POS floating around that moon over there.

If two systems have the same fraction of global production, but one has a factory station and the other does not, the factory system will have a 5% lower cost index. However, those numbers are all hidden serverside and the API only outputs the final cost index for us to see.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2014-09-08 22:16:39 UTC
Basically it means we are making almost as much as Jita in a single system oh dear.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#183 - 2014-09-08 22:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jon Lucien wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)


Sure. Here's the calculations as per the information provided in the 3rd party tools dev blog on cost calculations:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/industry-3rd-party-developers/ (Industry cost calculations section near bottom)

I'll be using a tengu right now since that's what I produce and can easily screenshot. I'm leaving teams out to simplify.

The formula should be
[Base production cost] x [# of runs] x [System Index] x [Facility bonus] x [Tax]

For a tengu the base production cost at this moment is 145,637,495.34
I'm using 1 run for simplicity.
System index for 2R-CRW right now is 0.047806290891008 as returned by the api
2R-CRW has an amarr outpost which should give a 0.5 multiplier according to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/?_ga=1.264323215.1609854296.1406338389 Appendix 2
Our Tax rate is 15% (1.15)

145637495.34 * 1 * 0.047806290891008 * 0.5 * 1.15 = 4003374 rounded up.

Current in-game job cost install fee: 8008163 isk

Here's the screenshot of this: http://i.imgur.com/kX3k6m6.png?1

4003374 / 8008163 = 0.49991165 close enough to 0.5

It seems really obvious to me that the facility bonus wasn't properly applied in game



Oh. I see the problem. The system index listed by the API includes all the applicable station-type bonuses, so the 0.04 number you're getting has already been halved due to the outpost.

(You'll note in the 3rd party blog it does not at any point direct you to multiply in the station bonuses; this is because they're already included in the index as just described.)



So, that means any POS's in Amarr systems are also getting the bonus from the outpost as they use the same system index or does the system index change if you manufacture in a station or in a POS and if it changes how do we get the endpoint for each facility???

Also, does that mean that system index in an Amarr station system, can essentially never go above 5?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#184 - 2014-09-08 23:26:31 UTC
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66057/1/full_pricing_formula.png

if that is no longer the formula, can you please advise as to the new formula - obviously we know starbase got removed
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#185 - 2014-09-09 09:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Kenneth Feld wrote:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66057/1/full_pricing_formula.png

if that is no longer the formula, can you please advise as to the new formula - obviously we know starbase got removed



The formula is accurate (other than the reduction due to hours run. That was removed), but not for us to use, as we don't get the raw figures.

We use:

cost of materials of the output using the adjusted cost from the api, at ME 0
multiplied by 0.02 if it's a research/invention/RE/copy job
multiplied by the cost index for that activity, in that system.
multiplied by 1.1 if it's in an NPC station, or by the tax multiplier set on PC facilities
multiplied by the team cost multiplier (team cost of 4% = 1.04 multiplier)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Jon Lucien
Goosefleet
Gooseflock Featheration
#186 - 2014-09-09 10:02:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jon Lucien wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)


Sure. Here's the calculations as per the information provided in the 3rd party tools dev blog on cost calculations:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/industry-3rd-party-developers/ (Industry cost calculations section near bottom)

I'll be using a tengu right now since that's what I produce and can easily screenshot. I'm leaving teams out to simplify.

The formula should be
[Base production cost] x [# of runs] x [System Index] x [Facility bonus] x [Tax]

For a tengu the base production cost at this moment is 145,637,495.34
I'm using 1 run for simplicity.
System index for 2R-CRW right now is 0.047806290891008 as returned by the api
2R-CRW has an amarr outpost which should give a 0.5 multiplier according to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/?_ga=1.264323215.1609854296.1406338389 Appendix 2
Our Tax rate is 15% (1.15)

145637495.34 * 1 * 0.047806290891008 * 0.5 * 1.15 = 4003374 rounded up.

Current in-game job cost install fee: 8008163 isk

Here's the screenshot of this: http://i.imgur.com/kX3k6m6.png?1

4003374 / 8008163 = 0.49991165 close enough to 0.5

It seems really obvious to me that the facility bonus wasn't properly applied in game



Oh. I see the problem. The system index listed by the API includes all the applicable station-type bonuses, so the 0.04 number you're getting has already been halved due to the outpost.

(You'll note in the 3rd party blog it does not at any point direct you to multiply in the station bonuses; this is because they're already included in the index as just described.)


Thank you for the clarification. I would like to point out however that the dev blog actually does tell me to multiply in the station bonus. Under the "Industry Cost Calculations" section step number 5:

"Multiply the cost by any facility bonuses as described in the ramAssemblyLineTypes"

Since this is not the case there needs to be an official word somewhere of how costs are now calculated since all of the published words are out-of-date.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#187 - 2014-09-09 10:12:00 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66057/1/full_pricing_formula.png

if that is no longer the formula, can you please advise as to the new formula - obviously we know starbase got removed



The formula is accurate (other than the reduction due to hours run. That was removed), but not for us to use, as we don't get the raw figures.

We use:

cost of materials of the output using the adjusted cost from the api, at ME 0
multiplied by 0.02 if it's a research/invention/RE/copy job
multiplied by the cost index for that activity, in that system.
multiplied by 1.1 if it's in an NPC station, or by the tax multiplier set on PC facilities
multiplied by the team cost multiplier (team cost of 4% = 1.04 multiplier)



So, then if you say build SC/Titans in a system with an Amarr station, there is no possible way to go over system index of 5

This gives a permanent 50% reduction to all SC/Titan jobs forever

Because initially it was only supposed to be jobs in the station, but by applying that bonus to the systen, it will now apply to all POS's


BTW: - this is a Y/N question.....
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#188 - 2014-09-09 10:42:42 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66057/1/full_pricing_formula.png

if that is no longer the formula, can you please advise as to the new formula - obviously we know starbase got removed



The formula is accurate (other than the reduction due to hours run. That was removed), but not for us to use, as we don't get the raw figures.

We use:

cost of materials of the output using the adjusted cost from the api, at ME 0
multiplied by 0.02 if it's a research/invention/RE/copy job
multiplied by the cost index for that activity, in that system.
multiplied by 1.1 if it's in an NPC station, or by the tax multiplier set on PC facilities
multiplied by the team cost multiplier (team cost of 4% = 1.04 multiplier)



So, then if you say build SC/Titans in a system with an Amarr station, there is no possible way to go over system index of 5

This gives a permanent 50% reduction to all SC/Titan jobs forever

Because initially it was only supposed to be jobs in the station, but by applying that bonus to the systen, it will now apply to all POS's


BTW: - this is a Y/N question.....


The station install cost modifier was originally listed as being a product of all stations in system and then applying to all jobs in that system. Hence the Liti example.

So Yes is the expected answer.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#189 - 2014-09-09 10:54:17 UTC
Maybe I missed something then. Thinking of the pre crius threadnaughts still give me headaches

I was under the impression the station bonus applied to jobs in station and the POS bonus for multiple arrays (I know it was removed) applied to jobs in POS's. I didn't think they were meant to stack based on the formula int he dev blog. basically you could remove the station component for POS jobs and remove the starbase part for station jobs


So, basically there is no reason to build anything at all from now until forever in anything other than an Amarr system and POS's get all of the cost bonus of the station.

/heads to jita and finish buying the stuff to upgrade Amarr to T3
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2014-09-09 11:21:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Czeris wrote:
Why are the bpcs found in data/relic sites still me 0/0?


We discussed this and I think came to the conclusion that we should probably leave them as-is, as we'd prefer invented BPCs to be the primary source. We're aware that this devalues some sites somewhat, and it's something we will likely revisit after further invention changes are done.


Before Crius, you could get like a little gem from time to time, like a 3run BPC for a T2 large CCC with really nice ME level. You still had to invest a couple hundret million ISK and you had to babysit your order for days or weeks because the demand for those rigs is pretty low but in the end you could, potentially, make a really nice profit.

Now, if you find such a BPC, you are better of trashing it or trying to sell it to some idiot that doesnt know better on contracts.

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#191 - 2014-09-09 11:25:44 UTC
Jon Lucien wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jon Lucien wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)


Sure. Here's the calculations as per the information provided in the 3rd party tools dev blog on cost calculations:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/industry-3rd-party-developers/ (Industry cost calculations section near bottom)

I'll be using a tengu right now since that's what I produce and can easily screenshot. I'm leaving teams out to simplify.

The formula should be
[Base production cost] x [# of runs] x [System Index] x [Facility bonus] x [Tax]

For a tengu the base production cost at this moment is 145,637,495.34
I'm using 1 run for simplicity.
System index for 2R-CRW right now is 0.047806290891008 as returned by the api
2R-CRW has an amarr outpost which should give a 0.5 multiplier according to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/?_ga=1.264323215.1609854296.1406338389 Appendix 2
Our Tax rate is 15% (1.15)

145637495.34 * 1 * 0.047806290891008 * 0.5 * 1.15 = 4003374 rounded up.

Current in-game job cost install fee: 8008163 isk

Here's the screenshot of this: http://i.imgur.com/kX3k6m6.png?1

4003374 / 8008163 = 0.49991165 close enough to 0.5

It seems really obvious to me that the facility bonus wasn't properly applied in game



Oh. I see the problem. The system index listed by the API includes all the applicable station-type bonuses, so the 0.04 number you're getting has already been halved due to the outpost.

(You'll note in the 3rd party blog it does not at any point direct you to multiply in the station bonuses; this is because they're already included in the index as just described.)


Thank you for the clarification. I would like to point out however that the dev blog actually does tell me to multiply in the station bonus. Under the "Industry Cost Calculations" section step number 5:

"Multiply the cost by any facility bonuses as described in the ramAssemblyLineTypes"

Since this is not the case there needs to be an official word somewhere of how costs are now calculated since all of the published words are out-of-date.



baseCostMultiplier from ramAssemblyLineTypes is 1 for all rows.

Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#192 - 2014-09-09 11:32:05 UTC
Charlie Firpol wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Czeris wrote:
Why are the bpcs found in data/relic sites still me 0/0?


We discussed this and I think came to the conclusion that we should probably leave them as-is, as we'd prefer invented BPCs to be the primary source. We're aware that this devalues some sites somewhat, and it's something we will likely revisit after further invention changes are done.


Before Crius, you could get like a little gem from time to time, like a 3run BPC for a T2 large CCC with really nice ME level. You still had to invest a couple hundret million ISK and you had to babysit your order for days or weeks because the demand for those rigs is pretty low but in the end you could, potentially, make a really nice profit.

Now, if you find such a BPC, you are better of trashing it or trying to sell it to some idiot that doesnt know better on contracts.



Just having a quick poke at the numbers, the answer is: not so much.

The differences with ME are far far smaller now. Especially when you're dealing with limited runs.

(sure, right now the price doesn't make sense at pretty much any level (with decryptors) but that's probably due to stock. or people not paying attention.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2014-09-09 12:23:36 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Czeris wrote:
Why are the bpcs found in data/relic sites still me 0/0?


We discussed this and I think came to the conclusion that we should probably leave them as-is, as we'd prefer invented BPCs to be the primary source. We're aware that this devalues some sites somewhat, and it's something we will likely revisit after further invention changes are done.


Before Crius, you could get like a little gem from time to time, like a 3run BPC for a T2 large CCC with really nice ME level. You still had to invest a couple hundret million ISK and you had to babysit your order for days or weeks because the demand for those rigs is pretty low but in the end you could, potentially, make a really nice profit.

Now, if you find such a BPC, you are better of trashing it or trying to sell it to some idiot that doesnt know better on contracts.



Just having a quick poke at the numbers, the answer is: not so much.

The differences with ME are far far smaller now. Especially when you're dealing with limited runs.

(sure, right now the price doesn't make sense at pretty much any level (with decryptors) but that's probably due to stock. or people not paying attention.)


Well, the found BPCs should still not be plain worse than invented BPCs. Make them at least equal to give people any reason to use them.

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#194 - 2014-09-09 14:28:19 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
By the way, we recently upgraded a caldari outpost, here: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/3QE-9Q

This has three factory improvements (don't ask) and should get -3% materials, but does not. I think that they're not working on any non-amarr.


ME bonuses I'm still investigating.

Retar Aveymone wrote:
I guess we are only a few weeks away from outproducing jita!


If you keep your current rate of closure on Jita's weekly numbers, it'll be more like ~4 months.

Kenneth Feld wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jon Lucien wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)


Sure. Here's the calculations as per the information provided in the 3rd party tools dev blog on cost calculations:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/industry-3rd-party-developers/ (Industry cost calculations section near bottom)

I'll be using a tengu right now since that's what I produce and can easily screenshot. I'm leaving teams out to simplify.

The formula should be
[Base production cost] x [# of runs] x [System Index] x [Facility bonus] x [Tax]

For a tengu the base production cost at this moment is 145,637,495.34
I'm using 1 run for simplicity.
System index for 2R-CRW right now is 0.047806290891008 as returned by the api
2R-CRW has an amarr outpost which should give a 0.5 multiplier according to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/?_ga=1.264323215.1609854296.1406338389 Appendix 2
Our Tax rate is 15% (1.15)

145637495.34 * 1 * 0.047806290891008 * 0.5 * 1.15 = 4003374 rounded up.

Current in-game job cost install fee: 8008163 isk

Here's the screenshot of this: http://i.imgur.com/kX3k6m6.png?1

4003374 / 8008163 = 0.49991165 close enough to 0.5

It seems really obvious to me that the facility bonus wasn't properly applied in game



Oh. I see the problem. The system index listed by the API includes all the applicable station-type bonuses, so the 0.04 number you're getting has already been halved due to the outpost.

(You'll note in the 3rd party blog it does not at any point direct you to multiply in the station bonuses; this is because they're already included in the index as just described.)



So, that means any POS's in Amarr systems are also getting the bonus from the outpost as they use the same system index or does the system index change if you manufacture in a station or in a POS and if it changes how do we get the endpoint for each facility???

Also, does that mean that system index in an Amarr station system, can essentially never go above 5?


System index is for all facilities in that system, and station types give bonuses to the system as described here: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/. So yes, starbases in Amarr outpost systems get a 0.5x cost multiplier.

Index isn't capped at 10 so no, it doesn't mean that Amarr caps it at 5 :)

Kenneth Feld wrote:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66057/1/full_pricing_formula.png

if that is no longer the formula, can you please advise as to the new formula - obviously we know starbase got removed


Starbase reduction and 0.99^ reduction are both gone, everything else is intact.

If you're trying to calculate job costs based on API data, then:
- If you have access to FW or DUST bonuses, you will need to account for them manually
- Otherwise, you should calculate costs exactly as described in the 3rd party blog here: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/industry-3rd-party-developers/

Jon Lucien wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Jon Lucien wrote:
[quote=CCP Greyscale]
Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)


Sure. Here's the calculations as per the information provided in the 3rd party tools dev blog on cost calculations:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/industry-3rd-party-developers/ (Industry cost calculations section near bottom)

I'll be using a tengu right now since that's what I produce and can easily screenshot. I'm leaving teams out to simplify.

The formula should be
[Base production cost] x [# of runs] x [System Index] x [Facility bonus] x [Tax]

For a tengu the base production cost at this moment is 145,637,495.34
I'm using 1 run for simplicity.
System index for 2R-CRW right now is 0.047806290891008 as returned by the api
2R-CRW has an amarr outpost which should give a 0.5 multiplier according to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/?_ga=1.264323215.1609854296.1406338389 Appendix 2
Our Tax rate is 15% (1.15)

145637495.34 * 1 * 0.047806290891008 * 0.5 * 1.15 = 4003374 rounded up.

Current in-game job cost install fee: 8008163 isk

Here's the screenshot of this: http://i.imgur.com/kX3k6m6.png?1

4003374 / 8008163 = 0.49991165 close enough to 0.5

It seems really obvious to me that the facility bonus wasn't properly applied in game



Oh. I see the problem. The system index listed by the API includes all the applicable station-type bonuses, so the 0.04 number you're getting has already been halved due to the outpost.

(You'll note in the 3rd party blog it does not at any point direct you to multiply in the station bonuses; this is because they're already included in the index as just described.)


Thank you for the clarification. I would like to point out however that the dev blog actually does tell me to multiply in the station bonus. Under the "Industry Cost...
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#195 - 2014-09-09 16:19:15 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
To confirm what the others have said.

On a copy job for one run, the price calculated using the formula ( SCI*Base Job Install Cost*0.02 ) should equal 1917.65 isk

SCI = 0.01133974
Base Job Install Cost = 8455426.366

This is for a Maller BPO.

The price I am getting quoted in game = 2110.00 isk


It seems like I didn't apply the station tax here. Although that would make it 2106.115. Is there some kind of rounding taking place which is giving me the 2110.00 final figure
BooomBox
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-09-09 17:01:26 UTC
CCP Greyscale,
There is one problem with the new industry interface, that doesn't make it any better than the old one in terms of comfort, at least for me:)
The parameters (number of runs, team, facility, input/output hangar) for identical jobs are saved. When you change blueprint, you need to choose everything again. In the old interface there was an option, which allowed to make some job parameters (input/output hangar) identical for all blueprints.
I want to suggest you to think about making such options in new interface.
Cheers
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#197 - 2014-09-09 17:26:52 UTC
Minmatar outpost ME update: found the problem, working on a fix. (Upgrade mapping problem, everything else is set up correctly but it looks like you'll only get the plant upgrade bonus if you apply the factory upgrade first. No data lost, just needs some adjustments to the upgrade mapping and some DB massage for existing upgrades.)
Notorious Fellon
#198 - 2014-09-09 20:03:41 UTC
Aside from the few quirks and oddities, I like the new interface and changes. It has made industry more enjoyable and eliminated the need of at least a couple of spreadsheets.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Hobojoe Dimaloun
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2014-09-09 20:24:37 UTC
I do apologise, i havent read most of the posts in this so it might have already been said. Whenever i go to reprocess materials it will bring up the tab, if i just reproccess then everything is great and fine, however, if i hover over a picture to see how much is being wasted, my entire client crashes.

Just thought you might want to know
Matthew
BloodStar Technologies
#200 - 2014-09-10 07:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthew
Medalyn Isis wrote:


It seems like I didn't apply the station tax here. Although that would make it 2106.115. Is there some kind of rounding taking place which is giving me the 2110.00 final figure


The job fee and the tax need to be calculated as two separate figures, individually rounded, then added together to get the total shown for the job. This is because the job fee and the tax go out of you wallet as two separate journal entries but the industry window is presenting a single total. They both also appear to be rounded to the nearest isk rather than the nearest 0.01isk.