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Dodging Wardecs

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Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#1 - 2014-09-09 07:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
I'm not one to call for changes in the war mechanics of Eve as I believe they are fine with the exception of one thing. This has been brought up numerous times in discussions with other players and is an annoying mechanic that many feel is "exploited", so to speak. If this topic has been addressed, I appologize..but I wasn't able to find any thread that specifically deals with this subject. Since none of the people who have voiced their opinions on the matter have opened a thread on it, I figured I'd do it.

Many corps use the current war mechanics to dodge wardecs. I'm sure many of you have experienced this, especially merc corps. The ability for a single man corp to close corp, dodge a war, and immediately reopen the same or a new corp seems a bit odd. When a corp leaves an alliance, it cannot rejoin said alliance for a week or until the war ends, which ever comes first..the same goes for a single member that leaves a corp. Why then can a single member corp be allowed to close corp and recreate it immediately?

Some suggestions that have been thrown out there seem pretty viable as a "remedy" for "exploiting" this mechanic to purposefully dodge wardecs at the cost of another corp. Some of these suggestions are as follows:

When a single member corp is wardeced, the corp should:

1: not be allowed to close the corp for the duration of the war (now this opens up placing an alt to hold the corp, which is annoying, but a far more acceptable alternative than outright dodging)

2: be allowed to close the corp, however, any wardec cost incurred by the agressing corp/alliance to initiate the war should be refunded to said corp, under the conditions there are no kills on the war report (ie. there are kills, you got what you paid for)..ALSO, the member who closed the corp cannot open or join a new corp for 1 week (or the remaining duration of the war, had it continued, if time has already passed when the corp was closed)

There were other suggestions as well for remedies to this but I felt these two option were the most viable. If others want to voice their suggestions or opinions, they may do so themselves and are welcomed, and encouraged to do so.

I'm sure there are many who will not agree with this, as there will be many who do..the point is, there are many mercs and wardec corps who know how annoying this can be..even though 50mil isn't a lot of isk, it's the point. Those who wish to be "immune" from wars should stay in NPC corps and not create corps just to dodge npc taxes and incur costs on a wardeccing corp by closing corp and reforming it seconds later. Eve is a social game intended for interaction, some unwanted and unwelcome...like in real life. This is what makes Eve so great. Giving the ability to purposefully dodge such interaction without some sort of cost or recourse seems a bit strange. I won't use the "unfair" word...life is unfair..it is, however, an issue that, in my opinion and the opinions of others, should be remedied and considered.

Anyways...enough of this...fly dangerously P

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-09-09 08:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
First, I was going to just troll this, because it has been discussed before and usually turns into a big flamewar anyway. Then, I was going to write a long list of things that could happen, but I just thought of something really simple. It was like an epiphany and for me, as epiphanies go, it was quite enlightening.

Folding a corp, closing it completely, could cost a measure of isk equal to the cost of deccing the corp. Creating a corp should be a commitment, especially if you're taking on a position of leadership. And if it's just a one-man corp, aside from the fact that there's no point wardeccing one dude to begin with, there's really no point to the corp itself either (testifying from a one-man corp myself - whatever, I do what I want).

As for quitting a corp that's been decced, one idea I saw posted once was that the quitting member, instead of escaping the war, gets flagged for the duration. I can agree with this but for the whiners who won't like it, I will suggest a compromise: quitters get a CONCORD notification that their involvement in the war has been declared invalid and will end in 24 hours. They then continue to be flagged for the remaining 24 hours, and if they join a different corp, that corp inherits the war much like a wardecced corp joining an alliance causes the alliance to inherit the war.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#3 - 2014-09-09 08:11:57 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
First, I was going to just troll this, because it has been discussed before and usually turns into a big flamewar anyway. Then, I was going to write a long list of things that could happen, but I just thought of something really simple. It was like an epiphany and for me, as epiphanies go, it was quite enlightening.

Folding a corp, closing it completely, should cost a measure of isk equal to the cost of deccing the corp. Creating a corp should be a committment, especially if you're taking on a position of leadership. And if it's just a one-man corp, aside from the fact that there's no point wardeccing one dude to begin with, there's really no point to the corp itself either (testifying from a one-man corp myself - whatever, I do what I want).

As for quitting a corp that's been decced, one idea I saw posted once was that the quitting member, instead of escaping the war, gets flagged for the duration. I can agree with this but for the whiners who won't like it, I will suggest a compromise: quitters get a CONCORD notification that their involvement in the war has been declared invalid and will end in 24 hours. They then continue to be flagged for the remaining 24 hours, and if they join a different corp, that corp inherits the war much like a wardecced corp joining an alliance causes the alliance to inherit the war.


That's actually a good suggestion. I too don't see much point in deccing a 1 man corp, but there are those that do..and in the interest of trying to see it from as many points as possible, I brought it up...apparently again, since it's a topic that has been discussed.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-09-09 08:12:21 UTC
Beers Veldspar in 3...... 2....... 1........

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-09-09 08:31:22 UTC
It's not annoying for me, I just laugh at the fact that you just wasted 50m Big smile

If you want it to stop, just stop scrolling through the offices in a station and putting a wardec on every corp listed.

My own personal thoughts are that nobody should be able to wardec another corp without due cause, ie: If a member is killed due to ganking or gate camped etc, then the members corp can decide if they want to wardec the offending party's corp.

The cost also should reflect the seriousness of it, make it a minimum of 100m and another 5m per member of the corp you are about to wardec.

The whole system is biased toward players like the op who's sole purpose in life is to grief others, if they lose money or "lols" tough, they get what they deserve.

I won't close my corp, but I will laugh as I fly past you on an alt carrying on near normally.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Dave Stark
#6 - 2014-09-09 08:36:31 UTC
you have two scenarios.

Wardecs being trivially dodged.
Wardecs being exploitable to the point of abusive harrassment.

pick one, and only one. It's obvious which one we'll end up with.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-09-09 08:37:19 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
.....without due cause...


This is a PVP game. That's due cause enough for me.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-09-09 08:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dave Stark wrote:
you have two scenarios.

Wardecs being trivially dodged.
Wardecs being exploitable to the point of abusive harrassment.

pick one, and only one. It's obvious which one we'll end up with.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

What actually needs to happen is people who make corps agree to the consequence of making a corp - "you can now be pee-vee-pee'd by anyone, anywhere, anytime, and this is how it works...". You tick a little box saying "I accept" and it lets you make a corp. I know on the surface this looks like a "but then everyone will just stay on NPC corps." I agree that's a possibility, but I also disagree that there's no alternative outcome. What if, by virtue of that checkbox, people aspire more to PVP?

Not to mention how many newbs it could stop from creating arbitrary corps as if they're WOW guilds and then recruiting other newbs with no ability to lead at all. And then, I still think it should cost isk to fold a corp.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Fr3akwave
Mercury Arms Inc.
Ghostbirds
#9 - 2014-09-09 08:55:28 UTC
I like the 24 hrs timer after leaving a decced corp.

In addition to that:
Why not limit the ability to join other Player corps entirely during the remaining time the wardec is running (max for a week)? You cannot join another player corp, you either have to stay in that corp or join an NPC one for that duration, should you decide to leave the decced corp. That would stop the close and recreate "workaround" while not limiting the ability for carebears to escape it - with the small bitter taste of high NPC corp taxes though, which i think is a fair tradeoff.
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#10 - 2014-09-09 08:55:48 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
you have two scenarios.

Wardecs being trivially dodged.
Wardecs being exploitable to the point of abusive harrassment.

pick one, and only one. It's obvious which one we'll end up with.


There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think in false dichotomies, and penguins.

What actually needs to happen is people who make corps agree to the consequence of making a corp - "you can now be pee-vee-pee'd by anyone, anywhere, anytime, and this is how it works...". You tick a little box saying "I accept" and it lets you make a corp. I know on the surface this looks like a "but then everyone will just stay on NPC corps." I agree that's a possibility, but I also disagree that there's no alternative outcome. What if, by virtue of that checkbox, people aspire more to PVP?

Not to mention how many newbs it could stop from creating arbitrary corps as if they're WOW guilds and then recruiting other newbs with no ability to lead at all. And then, I still think it should cost isk to fold a corp.


I agree it should cost to fold a corp...more than it costs to create one. Making a corp is a responsibility an it's far too easy to dodge such responsibility. Agreeing to the possibility of PvP when a corp is created is also a viable idea imo. It would thin the ranks and insure those corps that are formed are viable corps with members who will interact, be it wars or other activities. Creating a corp to dodge npc taxes and folding it at the first sign of a war or content is just a joke. Sure, not all Eve player want to PvP..but be aware that all Eve players may have to PvP at some point..especially to protect their interests. As for griefing, sure..some do that...but Eve is modeled to be realistic in ways like the real world. A true sandbox...where there are wars, criminals, hero's, etc. Pirates don't always need or have a reason to be pirates. Nations go to war without warning and without empathy for their targets...and such is the way of eve. If this bothers you, sorry to say, but you are playing the wrong game

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Prince Kobol
#11 - 2014-09-09 08:58:50 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Folding a corp, closing it completely, should cost a measure of isk equal to the cost of deccing the corp.



Nice idea which you would hope would be easy to implement, will it ever be.. not a chance.

If CCP Soundwave was still here I would imagine he would be up for it.
Dave Stark
#12 - 2014-09-09 09:04:30 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Folding a corp, closing it completely, should cost a measure of isk equal to the cost of deccing the corp.



Nice idea which you would hope would be easy to implement, will it ever be.. not a chance.

If CCP Soundwave was still here I would imagine he would be up for it.


Correct me if I'm wrong but can trial accounts be the CEO of a corp? if so, dump the trial account in the corp give it ceo, have everyone move to the new corp you've formed, and we're back to trivial dodging.
Dave Stark
#13 - 2014-09-09 09:07:01 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
you have two scenarios.

Wardecs being trivially dodged.
Wardecs being exploitable to the point of abusive harrassment.

pick one, and only one. It's obvious which one we'll end up with.


There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think in false dichotomies, and penguins.

What actually needs to happen is people who make corps agree to the consequence of making a corp - "you can now be pee-vee-pee'd by anyone, anywhere, anytime, and this is how it works...". You tick a little box saying "I accept" and it lets you make a corp. I know on the surface this looks like a "but then everyone will just stay on NPC corps." I agree that's a possibility, but I also disagree that there's no alternative outcome. What if, by virtue of that checkbox, people aspire more to PVP?

Not to mention how many newbs it could stop from creating arbitrary corps as if they're WOW guilds and then recruiting other newbs with no ability to lead at all. And then, I still think it should cost isk to fold a corp.


so basically what you're saying is that everyone should stay in npc corps because the only way to "fix" wardecs is to break everything else?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-09-09 09:08:55 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
you have two scenarios.

Wardecs being trivially dodged.
Wardecs being exploitable to the point of abusive harrassment.

pick one, and only one. It's obvious which one we'll end up with.


There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think in false dichotomies, and penguins.

What actually needs to happen is people who make corps agree to the consequence of making a corp - "you can now be pee-vee-pee'd by anyone, anywhere, anytime, and this is how it works...". You tick a little box saying "I accept" and it lets you make a corp. I know on the surface this looks like a "but then everyone will just stay on NPC corps." I agree that's a possibility, but I also disagree that there's no alternative outcome. What if, by virtue of that checkbox, people aspire more to PVP?

Not to mention how many newbs it could stop from creating arbitrary corps as if they're WOW guilds and then recruiting other newbs with no ability to lead at all. And then, I still think it should cost isk to fold a corp.


so basically what you're saying is that everyone should stay in npc corps because the only way to "fix" wardecs is to break everything else?


If that was what I was basically saying, then that's what I would have said. It's not what I said, however, so we can all sigh in relief and move on.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Dave Stark
#15 - 2014-09-09 09:11:15 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
you have two scenarios.

Wardecs being trivially dodged.
Wardecs being exploitable to the point of abusive harrassment.

pick one, and only one. It's obvious which one we'll end up with.


There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think in false dichotomies, and penguins.

What actually needs to happen is people who make corps agree to the consequence of making a corp - "you can now be pee-vee-pee'd by anyone, anywhere, anytime, and this is how it works...". You tick a little box saying "I accept" and it lets you make a corp. I know on the surface this looks like a "but then everyone will just stay on NPC corps." I agree that's a possibility, but I also disagree that there's no alternative outcome. What if, by virtue of that checkbox, people aspire more to PVP?

Not to mention how many newbs it could stop from creating arbitrary corps as if they're WOW guilds and then recruiting other newbs with no ability to lead at all. And then, I still think it should cost isk to fold a corp.


so basically what you're saying is that everyone should stay in npc corps because the only way to "fix" wardecs is to break everything else?


If that was what I was basically saying, then that's what I would have said. It's not what I said, however, so we can all sigh in relief and move on.


well there's close to **** all reason to join a player corp as it is, you've just added "constantly at war with everyone not in an npc corp".

making player corps less attractive isn't a way to fix wardecs.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-09-09 09:16:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


well there's close to **** all reason to join a player corp as it is, you've just added "constantly at war with everyone not in an npc corp".

making player corps less attractive isn't a way to fix wardecs.


Except no one's saying make player corps less attractive. What we're actually saying is, make it more clear to players what a player corp is, and what making one entails.

You just accused us of whining, but the nature of your butthurt becomes clear when you start putting words in my mouth and getting all sweary. You came on this thread already predisposed to disagree with this idea. I'll admit my bias: my bias is focused on EVE's nature as a PVP game, but I'm happy to discuss alternatives and compromises. You have already reached a conclusion though, and I suspect you'll happily deny your own bias. That's fine, your opinion has been noted and considered.

You may leave now. o7

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-09-09 09:19:25 UTC
Difficult subject don't think there's any easy answer, if there was they would have found it already.




Not everyone wants to be in a large corp., some new people complain that they start in a corp.

Single player corps. should remain possible for those that do not want to be in a player/npc corp. as well as this is a sandbox and as such you shouldn't impose too many artificial restrictions.

As for dodging war-decs what's better having people actually playing the game being able to dodge the war-dec or having people sitting in a station getting bored or playing something else for the duration of the war-dec?

There's also the people with multiple accounts that dodge war-decs by not playing the one with the war-dec during the duration of the war-dec. How would you stop them dodging it?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-09-09 09:22:19 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Difficult subject don't think there's any easy answer, if there was they would have found it already.




Not everyone wants to be in a large corp., some new people complain that they start in a corp.

Single player corps. should remain possible for those that do not want to be in a player/npc corp. as well as this is a sandbox and as such you shouldn't impose too many artificial restrictions.

As for dodging war-decs what's better having people actually playing the game being able to dodge the war-dec or having people sitting in a station getting bored or playing something else for the duration of the war-dec?

There's also the people with multiple accounts that dodge war-decs by not playing the one with the war-dec during the duration of the war-dec. How would you stop them dodging it?



All good points to consider. Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE input on this thread.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#19 - 2014-09-09 09:22:22 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Difficult subject don't think there's any easy answer, if there was they would have found it already.




Not everyone wants to be in a large corp., some new people complain that they start in a corp.

Single player corps. should remain possible for those that do not want to be in a player/npc corp. as well as this is a sandbox and as such you shouldn't impose too many artificial restrictions.

As for dodging war-decs what's better having people actually playing the game being able to dodge the war-dec or having people sitting in a station getting bored or playing something else for the duration of the war-dec?

There's also the people with multiple accounts that dodge war-decs by not playing the one with the war-dec during the duration of the war-dec. How would you stop them dodging it?



This is true..ad you make a good point. There is no easy solution that will please all. The best that can be hoped for is a solution or compromise that best suits the majority...whatever that may be.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-09-09 09:28:47 UTC
And I'm sure corporations that make a business of War dec'ing never use NPC corp alts to scout targets or remote rep or run assets to strategic locations during war.

Do as I say, don't do as I do?
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