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Nerf specialized industrials - make them use cargo expansion too
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-09-09 03:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
You mean I have to make choices when picking a hauler? What sorcery is this?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-09-09 05:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Anhenka wrote:
Why the hell does the presence of two acceptable extremes mean that right in the middle must be better?

Really sweet foods are good. Really spicy foods are good. Sit right in the middle and you know what you get? Oatmeal. **** that.
How the hell is either extreme any good? One suffers from having either cargo or tank, or neither, the other always has both no matter what you do. It's more like having one food that is always spicy no matter how sweet it is, and another food which you must remove 90% of the spicyness to make it even a little sweet, or you must remove 90% of the sweetness to make it even a little spicy.

Anhenka wrote:
June 3rd. (Kronos release with changed DST's)
July 3rd.
August 3rd.
September 3rd.


Are you telling us that you play so little that you have not updated your EFT in over three months, or flown the applicable ships in a quarter of a year, but feel qualified to make judgements on their use and changes that should be done to them?
I don't fly a DST and this thread isn't about DSTs. Someone else mentioned DSTs. I don't update my EFT very often because most of the ships haven't changed--the ones I use haven't changed at all since the last time I updated it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-09-09 05:54:14 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
You mean I have to make choices when picking a a hauler? What sorcery is this?

What choices? In my suggestion, you'd have to make a choice between how much tank you want vs. how much hauling capacity you want. In the currently existing lineup, you can either get both with no choice to make, or you can have either tank -or- hauling capacity with no middle ground.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Because being meh at two things is not better then being great at one
Having the maximum hauling capacity isn't the only important part of hauling. Likewise, high-tanked haulers don't get used solely to absorb damage on the battlefield. Having moderate tank AND moderate hauling capacity is an excellent way to fit. Too bad you can't have that on most haulers.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#24 - 2014-09-09 06:02:41 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I don't fly a DST and this thread isn't about DSTs. Someone else mentioned DSTs. I don't update my EFT very often because most of the ships haven't changed--the ones I use haven't changed at all since the last time I updated it.

While you have the right idea that regular haulers are out of balance, you have it the wrong way around. Regular haulers should get a 10-15k 'fleet hanger' of sorts that can carry anything. While keeping their current cargo bay. This then gives them the choice of defence or cargo without making it obvious that they have to go cargo to carry anything of any size.
They are then inferior to the DST and the specialised haulers (assuming you are carrying the right goods) while still able to haul a reasonable amount if they go defence.

That's the better way around to go, they certainly don't need a nerf, Industrials are weak enough as it stands.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#25 - 2014-09-09 06:09:22 UTC
While industrials are weak enough in their current format the specialized bays do need tuning down as ATM the Epithal in particular is ridiculous.

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-09-09 06:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
While you have the right idea that regular haulers are out of balance, you have it the wrong way around. Regular haulers should get a 10-15k 'fleet hanger' of sorts that can carry anything. While keeping their current cargo bay. This then gives them the choice of defence or cargo without making it obvious that they have to go cargo to carry anything of any size.
They are then inferior to the DST and the specialised haulers (assuming you are carrying the right goods) while still able to haul a reasonable amount if they go defence.

That's the better way around to go, they certainly don't need a nerf, Industrials are weak enough as it stands.

It's a flawed solution. It offers middle ground, but punctuated instead of smooth. With a fleet hangar in the ship, the first cargo mod you remove for tank takes off a lot of cargo, while the last one you take off removes very little cargo. This means that, speaking from the other side, the first tank module you remove for cargo sacrifices a lot of tank while giving you very little in return. A decent tank requires a lot of slots available, and taking even one tank module off can have a very significant effect. Going from zero tank modules to just one does not have much effect, however, unless the one module is an armor plate, but that is limited by powergrid.

With a stacking penalty on cargo expansion, it is the first module you remove from the tank which has the greatest effect on the cargo. Each further module has a diminished effect, gradually making the cargo gain worth less than the loss of tank, giving a smooth set of choices from one to the other.



Jezza McWaffle wrote:
While industrials are weak enough in their current format the specialized bays do need tuning down as ATM the Epithal in particular is ridiculous.

It's only ridiculous because you don't need to sacrifice any tank to get max cargo.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#27 - 2014-09-09 07:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If you want to haul that quantity of random things, use a DST.

The things are highly specialised, that's a disadvantage in itself.

DST can't haul much if it's got any defenses. Doesn't have defenses if it can haul anything. It's the same issue I'm talking about with all of the other industrials. There's too much cargo trade-off for a decent defense--you have to cut it down to a tiny fraction of the max just to survive more than ten seconds of fire from a single gank ship.


My personal experience with DSTs tells me your wrong there I'm afraid. For instance my indy character in say a Bustard DST (Transports 5 I admit) can manage somewhat over 65k m3 between cargo hold and fleet hanger and about a 170k EHP tank with a reasonable fit and heat. Expanders and rigs would only affect the base 5k m3 of the cargohold and have no effect on the fleet hanger at all so fitting tanking rigs and mods is the reasonable way to go and a fleet hanger full of GSC more than makes up for any cargo capacity lost to a full tank fit.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#28 - 2014-09-09 09:23:45 UTC
"I don't know anything about DSTs but I'm going to say they're useless anyway."

Calling this out as a troll thread.
Beta Maoye
#29 - 2014-09-09 10:27:31 UTC
Epithal is fine. Only need a few destroyers to do the job in high sec. Don't try to nerf it to the ground that a frigate can do the trick.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#30 - 2014-09-09 11:15:10 UTC
First I thought the OP made some 'readable' suggestion, but quickly I realized that his whole argument and perception is skewed. Maybe due to bias and personal interest (being attacked or disliked usually leads to a defensive position, because the points he bring up aren't really valid and only partly related. You can't compare specialized cargo with general cargo in such a general way as to argue a direct connections including values relations.

Further more does he only seem to argue for T1 basic industrials .... I believe other ships can use cargo extenders, yet they are totally neglected.

The argument of Iteron V vs Epithal is a strawman fallacy.

If you talking increasing general cargo in general, that is another issue.

If you are talking cargo extenders in general, you haven't really amde that discussion either.

If you talk about extenders affecting specialized bays ... good luck, CCP announced it won't happen (like ore bay) and even if would come with a heavy nerf-bat to all cargo bays.

-1
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-09-09 11:32:02 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Maybe due to bias and personal interest (being attacked or disliked usually leads to a defensive position, because the points he bring up aren't really valid and only partly related.
Or perhaps the general community isn't able to understand a concept that requires more than one mathematical equation to properly reconstruct in their mind. I've always understood that people don't get the concept of giving cargo expansion a stacking penalty or why, mathematically, not having it doesn't make sense, but I'm finding it difficult to come up with any ways to explain it that very many of you can even comprehend.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Further more does he only seem to argue for T1 basic industrials .... I believe other ships can use cargo extenders, yet they are totally neglected.
I'm trying to focus on a few ships. The more I try to involve in this discussion, the more convoluted it becomes, and the faster attention spans run out.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
You can't compare specialized cargo with general cargo in such a general way as to argue a direct connections including values relations.
...
The argument of Iteron V vs Epithal is a strawman fallacy.
I'm not comparing specialized cargo with general cargo. I'm saying both are broken, and I am also offering a singular solution that fixes both with no further major changes needed for balancing.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
If you talking increasing general cargo in general, that is another issue.
I don't believe I even hinted at that.

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
If you are talking cargo extenders in general, you haven't really amde that discussion either.
I don't know how I can make it any clearer. When I'm talking about giving a stacking penalty to cargo expansion, I'm talking about cargo expanders in general.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-09-09 11:34:49 UTC
Beta Maoye wrote:
Epithal is fine. Only need a few destroyers to do the job in high sec. Don't try to nerf it to the ground that a frigate can do the trick.
What, 4 or 5 destroyers? That's almost enough to gank an Orca. I'm not suggesting nerfing it THAT hard, but at max cargo capacity (currently quite a lot), it shouldn't also be super tough.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#33 - 2014-09-09 12:06:30 UTC
Us not understanding might be the point, yes.

If you are just asking for conformity - giving cargo expanders a stacking penalty, then do so. - Oh, you did.
Basically that can be done, and why not, if you can take the balance hit to low slots and cargo with an increase of expander bonus that is. If, sure, but say that and argue that, cause everything you said so far is unrelated to that argument.

Neglecting all possibilities, especially when mentioned, in regards to universal balance of affected items and exploits is bad arguing... so think about all the extremes first.

An you do compare the different cargo bay types and try to valuate their size and importance, constantly. I am only allowed 5 quotes ... so why bother ... you can backtrack your own posts.
Beta Maoye
#34 - 2014-09-09 12:57:59 UTC
A cargohold of 60K cubic meter is more juicy than that of 30K cubic meter. It is reasonable to take some efforts to get that larger cargohold. No need to nerf.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#35 - 2014-09-09 13:06:00 UTC
I think OP misunderstood the whole point of these ships.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-09-09 13:33:06 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I'm not comparing specialized cargo with general cargo. I'm saying both are broken, and I am also offering a singular solution that fixes both with no further major changes needed for balancing.


They are already balanced. There is no need for change. There is no need for a solution because they are NOT broken.
Absolutely Not Analt
Carebears on Fire
#37 - 2014-09-09 13:36:29 UTC
Altrue wrote:
I think OP deliberately misunderstood the whole point of these ships.


FTFY. I am also starting to get that niggling little voice in the back of my mind telling me this whole thread is an elaborate troll.

Eve is a multi player game. And you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-09-09 13:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
We all want a Mackinaw which can mine over 81k m3 of ore before it has to dock... Before rigs...

116k m3 ore bay on an orca is fun too I guess.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-09-09 14:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
What choices? In my suggestion, you'd have to make a choice between how much tank you want vs. how much hauling capacity you want. In the currently existing lineup, you can either get both with no choice to make, or you can have either tank -or- hauling capacity with no middle ground.

So I guess general cargo vs a specialized hold isn't a choice then?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-09-09 14:20:02 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
What, 4 or 5 destroyers? That's almost enough to gank an Orca.

lol wut