Wormholes

Since everyone seems to want to see stats and graphs for how terrible w-space is now I have a question for those still living in w-space. How many have actually had something negative happen to you as a direct result of the Hyperion changes, and how many of you have just avoided all risk because you live your life in fear that something bad may happen to you? Since the patch I have only seen or heard of one cap getting caught while hole rolling*. I would expect with how terrible this patch is reported to be that there would be countless reports of caps getting caught with their pants down, but I have not seen them. So, have you, your corp, or your alliance lost a cap while using it to roll a hole? Have you been jumped by a frigate fleet that came through a frig hole you couldn't close? I am looking for first hand reports from those who have lost ships/isk due to the patch mechanics to further our research. Feel free to mail or PM me if you wish to report your findings anonymously.


*I was there, EVE is real.

I think the risk aspect is badly mis-understood.

The problem is that when the additional risk from the mechanic change(s) actually materialises it tends to put undue burden on the smaller entity something which wormhole space has traditionally largely (though not entirely) managed to avoid.

What some people don't seem to understand is that the vast vast majority of the time when your collapsing a wormhole there simply is no one there to capitalise on that extra vulnerability and in adding that extra potential vulnerability it has added increased tedium for something that only really materialises as a gameplay enabler in fringe cases.

There is some aspect of that perceived risk that you hinted at also especially with the hugely increased levels of connectivity that for some corps is impossible to fully get a handle on with the limits of the pilots, etc. they have available.

EDIT: I'm actually surprised though at what I'm hearing anecdotally - it seems to have a bigger perceived effect on some C3/4 corps that I know people in to talk to in that some have moved out entirely just due to the possibility of unmanageable risk before it has even materialised and others just log off when there is a link in the chain to someone bigger or better at PVP than them even without seeing any activity.

This is a loaded request because too many people have already left to really gather data that actually scales to when the community really was alive in w-space and cap ganks were commonplace.

We stopped using orcas to close holes; for the majority of our endeavors. Because we perceived that the risk had changed. Now the question: is it real risk? It was real enough to change our behaviour.

The subject is not as contradictory as you make it seem. Bears are mad because there is increased risk for them to farm. PvP players are pissed off because they have to scan more wormholes to find active players.

The points are not mutually exclusive. I can have mywhine and eat it too.

I will address a few of the responses in no particular order.

1. It is not my bias in regards to caps. There is another topic where the reduction in cap kills/losses in w-space is pointed at as irrefutable evidence, so I am asking for more details on said evidence.

2. True, if you see a gang, but get away from said gang, then I will accept that as an eyewitness account of actual risk even if there will be no proof of said risk.

3. To me this is the most important. I recall a time not too long ago when any group that would POS up at the sight of actual risk would be targeted for eviction from w-space to appease Bob. If there are groups willing to either POS up, or even evacuate w-space, based on perceived risk then won't Bob be pleased anyway?

And my counter to that is if someone is so scared of the boogeyman that they won't leave their POS now then they were so scared of the boogeyman that they would roll every connection they had a month ago. That means the bear you had no chance of catching last month because they closed every door and window you still have no chance of catching because they either POS up, log out, or move. So again I ask for the PVPers what has been lost?

I find it virtually impossible to believe that someone that is such a big scarebear that they are leaving w-space because they can't close all of their holes now would be running sites, huffing gas, or crushing rocks a month ago with open entrances/exits. Maybe I am wrong, but my guess is I am not.

Still searching for eyewitness accounts of the boogeyman though.

I agree totally that if a group is in w-space ONLY to make isk by bearing it up then these changes probably tilt the risk/reward too far in the risk category when compared to other methods of making isk like missions, FW, incursions, or ratting. HOWEVER, what nobody seems to realize is the hunters were never going to kill those people anyway because before Hyperion they would scout 3 holes deep before rolling their hole before bearing it up in their home. Yes, there were, and still are, some dumb/brave/masochistic people that will try to bear with open holes, but guess what, they still exist, and still do stupid stuff.

My question still stands. With all of the increased holes is there any evidence of real increased risk? More fleets in your home/static(s) than before? Yes, I get that there is more perceived risk because if I went from 2 holes to 4 holes then my risk essentially doubled, but if all 4 holes, and their holes and their holes etc, are empty then is there any real increased risk?

Its a complicated subject - if you've got a 3 man corp with a few alts in a C1-4 and 7 or so wormholes each with 5+ wh connections thats a huge amount of potential risk to try and get to grips with and work out if all those possible connections and chains are actually empty or not.

I don't think the risk factor itself should really be an issue though the fact that when the risk factor does come into play with these changes it tends to largely plays into the hands of whoever has the most players, when before it was relatively balanced and could more often be decided by who made the smartest use of the terrain, is more of a disappointment.

CivilWars. I'm still very curious why you are caring so much about defending these changes when you already moved out prior due to the decline of WH space.

So to that I would ask a different question. I know it's not really the topic of this thread, but it seemed better than a call out in a new thread.

How did the WH changes make WH space better? I will even start by answering it myself, at least the more controversial changes.

I don't think they did. At best, these changes changed little. As such they were largely "change for change sake" which personally I think is a poor reason to implement a change.

1. WH spawn distance. Honestly I don't see how this changed much in terms of rolling. Anything from a BS to cap will likely land outside jump range. But the bottom line is unless it was the roll that collapses the WH you were generally at a similar risk. For example if I'm using an Orca, and due to bad scouting I jump thru the WH onto a gang, I'm dead either way. Pre patch I would jump back and get followed. Post patch I die on the other side. For fights I really don't know as I've never been a part of a Cap level fight on the WH. It does make a bunch of other comps hard if not impossible to use, such as an RR gang, as you land much further apart. That being said, this change does mix things up a bit so I think it was a more valid change than some of the others.

2. Small ship wormholes. I think these were just stupid. Maybe if there was some precedent for massive frig roams in WH space, but otherwise they generally seem to add more sigs to scan that are useless. Might as well make Ore sites sigs again to give me more useless stuff to scan.

3. Second WH static. Honestly I think this one may prove positive in the long run. While many C4 residents fled, in time hopefully others will re-settle. People who did not like C4's in the past may find them more to their liking.

4. Delayed k162. I also think this one was just useless. In fact I think it backfired. I have said as much in other threads. My experience is that more new k162's I've encountered were spawned a long time ago and not jumped through. Instead of rolling a WH and not warping to the new sig, you can warp a scout to the WH and keep an eye on it "just in case" without opening the other side. Do your stuff and then log out. Diligent site runners will still not get caught due to the changed mechanic if someone does jump thru into them. Change for changes sake.


To tie it in with your question, the problem then becomes perceived risk. Sure there have been lots of people leaving, or just not logging in due to the perceived risk. Are they correct to do so? Hard to say. The bigger issue is that the perceived GAINS of these changes simply aren't there either. So real or otherwise you have a larger perceived risk vs perceived gain, and the net effect is negative.