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The real issue with Emergent Gamplay, and Low/Null Industry
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Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#21 - 2014-09-01 12:02:57 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Lilly Naari wrote:
Saying a Mining Barge is Armed is laughable. They have enough DPS to Kill Highsec Rats, Maybe lowsec Rats (Depending on system Sec Status) Unless your willing to sacrifice your needed Mineral income for about 30 more DPS and it's still no mach for most Gankers.

A Ganking frigate can do About 500-700 DPS
A Mining Vessal (Well go with a skiff) Can do about 150 Tops.

What? You want a mining barge capable of entry level battleship damage? Battlecruiser? Apparently the concept of Mining Barge simply eludes your grasp. What you're asking for is the equivalent of putting this on this.

Your errors are further compounded by your apparent lack of comprehension as to how combat works in EvE. According to you, DPS is everything, and being able to tank incoming damage is meaningless. I put ShahFluffers procurer fit into EFT and my lowest skilled mining alt can get 64k EHP out of it. How long do you think it'll take a full ganked fit frigate to deplete 64k EHP? Keep in mind a full ganked fit frigate has no tank to speak of, so will be very vulnerable to the flight of light drones unleashed by the procurer.

Lilly Naari wrote:
...Unless your willing to sacrifice your needed Mineral income...
...you have to severely gimp your mining capabilities...

Yes, this is exactly, right. Not only that, it's how CCP ******* designed it after the most recent change to mining barges.

Lilly Naari wrote:
...because it is obviously NOT designed for combat in any way form or fashion...

Right. Let me say it again, because you're obviously having difficulty understanding this simple concept. It is a Mining ship, not a combat ship.

Lilly Naari wrote:
CCP will most likely eventually add an Armed Mining Vessal, Simply because it is a role and Niche Industrial pilots simply do not have access to in game, and is one thing the game is really missing to help merge the 2 more fluidly.

No, they will not likely add an armed mining vessel. The mining vessels currently designed to actually engage in combat are very well done, when you consider that they're not combat vessels.



So what if it's a "Mining" Ship?

Combat Ships can Mine Cruisers with 2 Mining lasers and the rest Guns fill this role just peachy.

And I see people doing this a lot. What is so difficult about Imagining an Industrial ship designed like this?


So your essentially saying it is OK for a combat ship to Mine. But it is Not ok for a Mining ship to be able to fight. That's a bit hypocritical there bub.
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#22 - 2014-09-01 12:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilly Naari
ShahFluffers wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Lilly Naari wrote:
A Ganking frigate can do About 500-700 DPS


Show me a ganking frigate that does 500-700 dps.

Not even my full-gank Enyo goes that much over 400 dps. Roll

But yeah... OP should just go with my Procurer fit. It easily gets 55+k ehp and, when properly skilled, can handily kill battleship NPCs in low-sec.

Also... Lily... Procurers and Skiffs when fit for combat are doing ~200+ dps. Not a lot mind you... but nothing to sniff at either. It's the average dps of a Tech 1 frigate (with a battlecruiser class tank behind it).



One of my characters corps has a Doctrine fit for Gank frigates that easily goes over 500 DPS. And they use them consistently.

I own 6 accounts also. (If someones next question was how many character do I have).

Yea the skiff is decent these days.


I wasn;t meaning that CCP needed to edit the barges and Exhuimers, I was thinking more along the lines of a new Ship type. Maybe with 4 Guns and 2 Lasers or something (Like some retrofit Cruiser miners use). Just seems like since people do it with cruisers anyway, why not have an actually industrial ship for it?
Iain Cariaba
#23 - 2014-09-01 19:43:10 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
Um My comparison was to a "Frigate", where do you see me state a mining vessel (Notice I did not say "Barge" or "Exhumer") should have the tank and DPS of a Battlship?

Oh wait.. I didn't.

Really? So the fact that someone just getting into a battleship can do just over the amount of damage you say a frigate can do, and you want more damage then you say a frigate can do, isn't asking for battleship damage on a mining barge? Maybe you should read your own posts again.

Lilly Naari wrote:
So what if it's a "Mining" Ship?

Combat Ships can Mine Cruisers with 2 Mining lasers and the rest Guns fill this role just peachy.

And I see people doing this a lot. What is so difficult about Imagining an Industrial ship designed like this?


So your essentially saying it is OK for a combat ship to Mine. But it is Not ok for a Mining ship to be able to fight. That's a bit hypocritical there bub.

And a combat ship with 2 mining lasers doesn't get good mining yield, kind of like how a mining barge doesn't get good DPS. Funny how that works, isn't it? Sure, you can put mining lasers on a combat ship. No one who knows better does, as that's like putting RLMLs on a Moros.

Since you're claiming to be a beta player and all, can you name one ship that used to have mining bonuses that wasn't a mining barge or exhumer? No, the Venture and Prospect don't count.

Nope, nothing hypocritical in pointing out the way CCP set up the way it works. Keep trying though, maybe one day you'll actually make a point that isn't completely wrong.

Lilly Naari wrote:
One of my characters corps has a Doctrine fit for Gank frigates that easily goes over 500 DPS. And they use them consistently.

And I guarantee that fit, if it really exists, is dependent on having logi along to rep it. This means that if you have no logi, then you're still not going to get through a procurer's 64k EHP tank before it's drones melt you. If you do have logi, then you're going to win anyway, so why bring that much firepower?

LIlly Naari wrote:
I own 6 accounts also. (If someones next question was how many character do I have).

Sure, 6 accounts in your same little highsec mining corp. Your blatant lack of knowledge about various aspects of EvE hints that you've never left highsec, regardless of your bloated claims.

Lilly Naari wrote:
I wasn;t meaning that CCP needed to edit the barges and Exhuimers, I was thinking more along the lines of a new Ship type. Maybe with 4 Guns and 2 Lasers or something (Like some retrofit Cruiser miners use). Just seems like since people do it with cruisers anyway, why not have an actually industrial ship for it?

You say this now after every single attempt at getting miners buffed again has been shot down. This is the point where you concede that you have bad ideas, and go back to whining about one guy taking all your precious highsec ice.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#24 - 2014-09-01 20:25:54 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
One of my characters corps has a Doctrine fit for Gank frigates that easily goes over 500 DPS. And they use them consistently.

Show fit.

How did you Veterans start?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2014-09-01 21:20:26 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
[

Since you're claiming to be a beta player and all, can you name one ship that used to have mining bonuses that wasn't a mining barge or exhumer? No, the Venture and Prospect don't count.



Hint: Every T1 logistics cruiser and frigate used to be a mining ship.

They got changed because they were awful at it.


That said, OP, why should a mining ship be able to do the same sort of damage as a battlecruiser at least? You can already get a pretty decent combat barge going with the skiff/procurer, especially in numbers.

Where is the tradeoff in your proposed ship? What does it sacrifice to gain it's massivley increased tank and gank? is it's mining yield somewhat worse than that of an ibis?
Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#26 - 2014-09-02 11:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylphy
I'm kinda willing to hedge my bets it's Nikk Narrel on an alt char.


Please, take an interceptor or warpy cloaky and go through each null-sec system and check how many systems have industry at a certain level. Let's only pick systems with at least L3 industry.
(or you could persue DOTlan for the same effect)

Then write those systems down and monitor them throughout the entire month (31 days).
Also note the changes in rises and drops of Industry levels AND those of neighbouring systems.

That research will however only give you a rough turn-over for normal ore, not ice. For Ice, check each null-sec system for POSes and calculate aproximately how much ice needs to be mined/purchased to keep those towers up and functional. Also account for jump bridge fuel, capital jump drive fuel and ofcourse search all killboards everyday for BLOPS+COVOPS vessels killing someone and add those to the tally of needed fuel every single day.ΕΎ

After you've done your "little" research, you'll get a realistic idea on how much mining is actually done in null-sec that you claim is so very little or nonexistant now "just because CCP said 80% of industry is done in high-sec).

Thank you for your attention so far, can you please stop posting stuff that doesn't hold water?

Edit: Almost forgot. Why would mining barges need more defenses? They are specialized vessels. You want more defensive and offensive power? Mine in a battleship/cruiser/carrier/mercnaugt/titan, nobody is stopping you from doing that. Hell, put mining lasers on a Rorqual and mine with that.

Ships that are specialized for a certain role are greatly efficent in that particular role but LACKING in others for a simple reason. That's the point of specialization.

Besides, you're missing the point here. EVE Onlline is an MMO. Note the second "M" describing "Multiplayer". This isn't Tetris or Super Mario Karts. Make some friends, have them defend you from the baddies, it'll be a rich and pleasant experience for everyone involved.

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-09-02 14:36:52 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
One of my characters corps has a Doctrine fit for Gank frigates that easily goes over 500 DPS. And they use them consistently.


Then by all means, name this doctrine ganking frigate that does 500-700 dps.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-09-02 18:36:33 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
My point with that post is that if you give mining ships the ability to defend themselves, more miners will participate in the whole Null/Lowsec areas.

Bonuses to defense are not enough, it does no good to simply "survive" until more people show up. They need to be able to neutralize their attacker so they can either warp out or continue mining.

I do not see an issue with that. In fact it accomplishes and fixes some of the issues so many complain about. And hey the PvPers should be happy, as Care-bears will finally be PvPing.. I mean really it's win win for everyone.


Oh, and I am not allowed to post on my Main. It's Alliance/Corp Policy. There are obvious reasons for this, both strategic, and political.

Again, On ISboxer, according to the Eulas Definition of Botting, it is exactly that, and CCP wrote the Eula which defines very clearly what Botting is.

YES it is CCP's decision whether to enforce it, or not. But it is, what it is.



This change doesn't do anything to the PvP meta-game. PvPers want kills. They'll kill a helpless barge w/ 2 ships or 10 not-so-helpless barges with 20 ships. Increasing a barge's offensive capabilities will only make a PvPer more likely to engage with more people, which will just make no difference.

You will not ever be able to change what the person at the keyboard is doing, and no amount of messing with non-combat ships will change that. Right now, the keyboardist is bored with Sov mechanics, doesn't want to dedicate time to FW and has made 20B isk doing incursions for a month. The keyboardist is creating his/her own content, to the perceived detriment of the miner. The meta has become 10 year-old bullies with nothing better to do than beat up the 1st graders playing in the sand.

Until THAT changes, we miners (and I'm proud to be a carebear) will just have to deal with it. So should you.

Cedric
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-09-02 19:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Lilly Naari wrote:
Oh, and I am not allowed to post on my Main. It's Alliance/Corp Policy. There are obvious reasons for this, both strategic, and political.


lmao, renters. Specifically Northern Associates is literally the only alliance left in the game that has this policy.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#30 - 2014-09-08 16:21:20 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Lilly Naari wrote:
One of my characters corps has a Doctrine fit for Gank frigates that easily goes over 500 DPS. And they use them consistently.


Then by all means, name this doctrine ganking frigate that does 500-700 dps.


I suspect it's named "bullfit".

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#31 - 2014-09-08 18:06:42 UTC
1) learn to tank
2) bring a friend ( or 5 )
3) stop whining because low/null corps don't like you mining their rocks without asking. Get your own rocks.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
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