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Eve-Bet Revenant Event Feedback

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CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#41 - 2014-09-07 20:30:50 UTC
God Arthie wrote:
Yes. I have the basic understanding on how TiDi works. It was my first experience with it, and i was really dissapointed, as i was expecting to see batch commands processing, so if someone would generate an event, the event and time would be recorded and in some time we would see the result, but in this case i've heard how people were already shooting the rev while i was still locking it(even if they warped after me).
Just to be clear: You weren't experiencing Time Dilation, you were experiencing lag.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
El Creepo
Star Nation
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2014-09-07 20:38:23 UTC
I dont think people grasp how incredible it is that 4000 pilots can be on a grid and it still function, even at the incredibly slow pace of tidi.

4000 pilots.

For reference, thats more players in system than a WoW server supports.... in one fight. You know tidi will kick in at an event like this, its up to you if you want to attend. If you dont like it, go do something in a small gang elsewhere and be lag free. It just amazes me how people think CCP are sh*t because of tidi when its actually an incredible bit of wizardry that it all works as well as it does.
Eve-Bet One
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-09-07 21:00:38 UTC
God Arthie wrote:
So, we have a topic without any participation from Eve-Bet...

Sorry Space Friend! I completely missed this thread. I did reply in the original thread.


CCP Explorer wrote:
Viaharo Musa wrote:
CCP any reply about the km?
I would recommend that the Revenant pilot contact Customer Support regarding any issues with the kill report.


God Arthie wrote:
...CCP Explorer giving recommendations to the Revenant pilot(who may never see this post) to write a support ticket ? Well I would recommend that CCP Explorer write an in game mail to the pilot asking him DIRECTLY to write to support for a KNOWN issue.


Unfortunately, I had not lodged a support ticket. I have now! That said, given the publicity of the event, I am sure CCP knows about the lack of a KM and the communities desire to see one. I had also contacted CCP by other means regarding the KM. I am sure they where pretty busy with AT XII, as where we.

A huge thankyou to those who participated. A massive thankyou for CCP participating with out crazy hair-brained scheme. Sorry about kinda breaking your servers!

Cheers,
Eve-Bet
Viaharo Musa
Evian Industries
Reeloaded.
#44 - 2014-09-07 21:01:14 UTC
El Creepo wrote:
I dont think people grasp how incredible it is that 4000 pilots can be on a grid and it still function, even at the incredibly slow pace of tidi.

4000 pilots.

For reference, thats more players in system than a WoW server supports.... in one fight. You know tidi will kick in at an event like this, its up to you if you want to attend. If you dont like it, go do something in a small gang elsewhere and be lag free. It just amazes me how people think CCP are sh*t because of tidi when its actually an incredible bit of wizardry that it all works as well as it does.



i do have to say, i agree. the system held up wonderfully with the shear ammount of people in local at once all fighting. It was way better than the battle of b-r.
My only complaint is lack of the juicy km lol. I know i was aggressed on the target and firing at the time it died so... i guess all in good time.

Litterally that is my only complaint. Epic event imho
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#45 - 2014-09-07 22:25:32 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
God Arthie wrote:
Yes. I have the basic understanding on how TiDi works. It was my first experience with it, and i was really dissapointed, as i was expecting to see batch commands processing, so if someone would generate an event, the event and time would be recorded and in some time we would see the result, but in this case i've heard how people were already shooting the rev while i was still locking it(even if they warped after me).
Just to be clear: You weren't experiencing Time Dilation, you were experiencing soul crushing lag.



FYP

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#46 - 2014-09-08 04:03:39 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Time Dilation is a mechanism to cope with load. As I explained in my first post, in terms of load there are 3 stages: Controlled CPU, 100% CPU but controlled Time Dilation, 100% CPU and 10% Time Dilation and Dogma Lateness setting in. It is when we get to a really large number of pilots (such as the 4920 pilots at peak in this case) and enormous load beyond what 10% Time Dilation can cope with that we start to see issues.


I stand corrected.

Tidi itself is a good improvement compared to how large fleet fights used to be before it existed.It is also a very smart way to keep the game going with higher number of pilots until other technical solutions can be found to improve larger fleet fights

Still playing under TiDi is not the best gaming experience, even if TiDi by itself is doing its job well. I should not have thrown it under the bus as I did, where I was mainly speaking of the experience itself.

I do like the concept of large fleet fights, and this is one of the reasons I stick with Eve and keep it as my main gaming hobby. I hope I can join large fleet fights again someday, when I can enjoy the game experience that comes with it. Until then, for me, there are plenty of other fun stuff to do in Eve Smile

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#47 - 2014-09-08 04:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
CCP Explorer wrote:
Rixx Javix wrote:
Excellent, and I have read those reports believe it or not. So this begs the question, what are our options? Given the technical limitations on server load and the increasing amount of reporting needing to be done, crime-watch, drones, etc., what are legitimate options for massive fleet battles or events?

Is it time to consider a hard limit on per system player numbers? What else can be done?

PS: I'm no fan of limits and I would never recommend them. Perhaps this is just one of those things that has no real answer. At least, not yet. 5,000 ships, each with their own modules, guns, drones, effects, sec status, etc, etc. There is only so much computing power available.
Hard population cap is not the answer; that will become a tactic where the cap will be used to lock people out and avoid a fight.

In terms of answers:

  1. More servers :) Just this week we were preparing RFPs for new hardware, to replace TQ.
  2. Team Gridlock is continuing on rewriting Dogma and on the Brain-in-a-Box project. There are also other things on the table such as drone-swarms where all drones act in a swarm like one drone, this would be similar to the grouped gun system. Given the O(n^2) nature of drones this would significantly reduce load in certain scenarios.
  3. The last part is more tricky and the one we would appreciate feedback: How can we spread large fights over multiple systems in such a manner that it's fun for everyone involved? Some sort of a simultaneous mega-objective across multiple systems but only when there are many involved so you could still have single-system fights depending on man-power (we don't want to require people to always have 3000+ pilot fleets). This happened in B-R since there were fights in the staging systems and Titans and fleets were intercepted en route to B-R.





For number 3, I think you'd practically have to change the whole game around. What you describe in item 3 is indeed epic, but that's a lot to think about.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-09-08 05:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Event was boring. I definitely don't want to be in a system with that many toons again. Only went to whore on a Rev killmail. Still no killmail out yet? Oh well. Seems like a waste of hours type experience. Next eve-bet event, I'll just pass. There's much better things to do in eve than sit in tidi. Playing a game in slow motion is more fun when stoned.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-09-08 10:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
Those new to TiDi fights;

Revenant event was not an example how TiDi fights work. Do not diss TiDi based on this horrendously laggy "I'm shocked the server didn't die in a fire"-event.

Normal TiDi fights work perfectly well, just slowly.

Revenant event worked very poorly. Guns got stuck, response times varied, some commands never got processed etc. Even the infamous "soul-crushing lag" popup was reported from time to time.

..but for those who are old timers, this used to be the norm for 800-1000 people fights. Past 1000 the server just keeled over and died (everyone got kicked out). TiDi and general improvements in server code allowed the server to stay alive at nearly 5000 pilots and you still could kinda, maybe do something if you tried really hard and had a lot of patience.

(TiDi commonly kicks in at around 500+ people fights, with some TiDi "spikes" during large fleet jumps/undocks even with smaller pilot counts)

Those who were in system early can confirm that the Revenant event system worked fine (under TiDi) until it hit slightly over 2000 pilots in local.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#50 - 2014-09-08 17:29:13 UTC
Can we has graphs, pictures and metrics in a dev blog. I love the dev blogs about this stuff with lots of graphs and other cool info. Also to the people who say this was a waste of time because of no kill mail. Have you stopped to think that so many people on 1 kill mail broke the kill mail system? Did you think that you know you did something more for EvE than you realized? Fights like this help future fleet fights and server development and help improve code by finding issues that happen with large fights.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Talon Draygo
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-09-08 17:33:22 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Those new to TiDi fights;

Revenant event was not an example how TiDi fights work. Do not diss TiDi based on this horrendously laggy "I'm shocked the server didn't die in a fire"-event.

Normal TiDi fights work perfectly well, just slowly.

Revenant event worked very poorly. Guns got stuck, response times varied, some commands never got processed etc. Even the infamous "soul-crushing lag" popup was reported from time to time.

..but for those who are old timers, this used to be the norm for 800-1000 people fights. Past 1000 the server just keeled over and died (everyone got kicked out). TiDi and general improvements in server code allowed the server to stay alive at nearly 5000 pilots and you still could kinda, maybe do something if you tried really hard and had a lot of patience.

(TiDi commonly kicks in at around 500+ people fights, with some TiDi "spikes" during large fleet jumps/undocks even with smaller pilot counts)

Those who were in system early can confirm that the Revenant event system worked fine (under TiDi) until it hit slightly over 2000 pilots in local.


Yeah there was only 850 people in local when my 12 man fleet arrived. There was zero tidi until around 2500. At one point we had over 5000 pilots in system.


I think the mechanics in general worked fine the only suggestion I would make for these events is to have an active cyno jammer so fleets actually had to work to get into system instead of just dropping 3 to 4 hundred people in the system.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#52 - 2014-09-08 20:13:31 UTC
Talon Draygo wrote:
At one point we had over 5000 pilots in system.
And the server kept going....Shocked
Let me assure you that if someone would have told me that several years back, I would have bought them a beer. I also would have laughed hard straight in their face...Big smile

That said, I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
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Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2014-09-09 16:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
having experienced TiDi before, i kind of knew what to expect, but the sheer number of pilots attending this event surprised me. I though we might get half the number that actually turned up.

The experience of course was terrible, managed to fire one salvo of missiles in four hours.

Most Eve players will would never get a chance to get on a supercap killmail, and nearly five thousand players turned up to get one, so CCP you'd better get on with it, and sort that killmail out or I predict there's going to be trouble. The last live event was a PR disaster. Repeatedly pissing off your clients is not good for business so please get this one right for a change.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Coffee Rocks
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-09-09 21:04:56 UTC
Jandice Ymladris has a wonderful article recently posted on The Coffee Rocks:

The Nisuwa Revenant Kill Event (or how we tried to murder the servers)

Outstanding summation of the technical aspects of this Live Event, and the problems that occurred.

You never fly alone - Broadcast 4 Reps | Twitter: @thecoffeerocks | Steam: CoffeeRocks
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#55 - 2014-09-10 01:33:53 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
The last live event was a PR disaster. Repeatedly pissing off your clients is not good for business so please get this one right for a change.

You know this wasn't a Live Event right?
This was a player event, quite different and this thread is really in the wrong forum.
Coffee Rocks
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-09-10 03:52:10 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
The last live event was a PR disaster. Repeatedly pissing off your clients is not good for business so please get this one right for a change.

You know this wasn't a Live Event right?
This was a player event ...


Bingo.

Player driven events with this kind of a prize ("come here and shoot this") tend to create this problem. Nothing against eve-bet: I still applaud anyone that tries to shake it up!

You never fly alone - Broadcast 4 Reps | Twitter: @thecoffeerocks | Steam: CoffeeRocks
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#57 - 2014-09-10 06:25:56 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:

  • The last part is more tricky and the one we would appreciate feedback: How can we spread large fights over multiple systems in such a manner that it's fun for everyone involved? Some sort of a simultaneous mega-objective across multiple systems but only when there are many involved so you could still have single-system fights depending on man-power (we don't want to require people to always have 3000+ pilot fleets). This happened in B-R since there were fights in the staging systems and Titans and fleets were intercepted en route to B-R.
    • [/list]


    This...I might have an answer to!

    I'm currently penning a mechanic to allow for this in Nullsec. Its a more...."down to Earth"....solution. Working on the final details and also, wondering who can I discuss this with in a serious and non-trolly manner.

    ...
    CCP Falcon
    #58 - 2014-09-13 22:15:43 UTC
    For reference, this was not a CCP hosted event, and wasn't organized by us.

    There seems to be misconceptions by some people that this event was CCP organized. That isn't the case.

    A little assistance was provided, however Smile

    CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

    Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
    God Arthie
    Lowlife.
    Snuffed Out
    #59 - 2014-09-13 22:22:10 UTC
    CCP Falcon wrote:

    ...
    A little assistance was provided, however Smile

    So that's why there is no KM =).
    Durzel
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #60 - 2014-09-14 09:02:02 UTC
    Talon Draygo wrote:
    Well without a kill mail the whole thing was a complete waste of time in my opinion.

    The lure of a killmail was the reason there were so many people there to begin with, so it's a self-defeating behaviour. It was a completely artificial fight.

    That's not to say that CCP shouldn't strive to enable 4000+ person fights, but they shouldn't care too much about events that are only as popular as they are because of legions of people who don't care who is involved or why it's happening but just want to pad their killboards.