Science & Industry

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How many pages of complaints will it take before CCP gets it's stubborn heads out of their a..(cough) out of the sand?

I need stuff to work, not look pretty, or cost exponentially increasing ammounts because CCP still makes too many facilities invisible to find these mythical cheap stations without visiting every single one of them.

At first, I adapted by simply stopping research, but now industry is getting rediculously expensive.

Two weeks ago, I submitted a month long job to build some shuttles - that cost me 270k or so.

Today, after getting all of the minerals necessary, it cost me about 1.4million to do around a 3 HOUR job, in the cheapest facility I could find in 3 regions !

At this point, my options were to transport all of the minerals at considerable risk to a trade hub and wait for it to sell, or push ahead.

CCP either has deliberately chosen to freeze out casual hisec players, or they have made a colossal error of judgement when they set their benchmarks for the costs. A 5% decrease from a team doesn't come anywhere close to costs being bilions of times higher (and I'm not exaggerating here either, it just keeps climbing).

So what was it?

A) deliberate decision to screw over a lot of independent high security industrial players to appease a CSM that doesn't represent us because it is stacked by the nullsec power blocs?
B) colossal incompetence?
C) arrogant disregard in failing to consult the people affected?
D) attempting to patch the game with public relations and advertising instead of actual game development.
E) Cost cutting? "Good enough is close enough until we can free the other development teams up"

Note: they are not mutually exclusive defenses, any combination can apply.

they go really well when you serve them with freshly harvested whine.

Dinsdale vintage, best vintage

For those players with POS anchored in a high system without other manufacturing facilties, you are fine - pity about those new players starting out in industry and paying orders of magnitude greater than the career mission reward to build a civilian shuttle.

However, lets look at some decisions by CCP.

1: Artificially set ice levels in high sec to 80% of total demand, but of course that always lags.
effect: strangle fuel production and keep squeezing more when POS start going out of business
2: Create a monopoly on POCOs needed for fuel blocks and construction blocks (T2 ships, etc).
effect: allow PvP corporations to squeeze out the industrial/mining corporations.
3: Remove the standing requirements for setting up a POS in empire space
effect: remove the consequences for PVP corporations who have trashed their empire standings in lowsec.

How am I supposed to be able to afford to run a POS, let alone defend it - high sec facilities are my only realistic option?

Did CCP want to design an ISK sink, or a black hole that sucks everything in and leave an empty void?

For all those people living in alliances who get ship replacement so they can keep on having fun, laugh it up now - but when you don't have industrialists in your corps to build those disposable ships or your ratting taxes skyrocket, remember "I told you so."

Have you looked at building anything else?

There was a lot of doomsdaying before crius released, but it's pretty much died down since the release. Most industrialist seem to be back to work and figuring out how to make the best profit in the new environment - even though it's probably going to take a couple more months for the changes to stabilize. In the meantime, I'm a new manufacturer and I'm making a profit in high-sec.

You do know its not our job to prove your claim wrong, but your job to prove it right in the first place.

1. can't really help here -- maybe you could try lowsec/nullsec though.
2. EVERYONE IN THE GAME IS IN A PVP CORPORATION. Just because you're not in a combat oriented corporation does not mean that you do not engage in Player vs. Player activities.
3. You might wanna re-check how standings work mate ... shooting players in lowsec doesn't touch your faction standings at all (unless FW targets)

Looks to me like this is evidence that the crius update is functioning as intended.

Industry is still quite profitable. But you have to be a bit more knowledgeable about what you are doing. I find this to be a good thing.

Why can't I fit all these limes in one basket?!

In other words,

1) Move
2) Make something else
3) Get a POS

If we have to adjust to make money on industry, everyone should. New players shouldn't be overly catered to. They'll still make profit, just not a lot until they realize they need to move and do the same.

I think you're doing it wrong. Let me explain.

You seem to be under the impression that in order to make money with manufacturing, you have to sell the item below what everyone else is selling them at. This is not the case. More often than not, manufacturers who mine their own minerals and have little concept of economics sell their products below cost. This is because they think to themselves, "I mined it and thus it is free". They are in fact very wrong. Opportunity costs. In the time you spent mining those minerals to put in to a product, you could have made more money, say, running missions to buy more minerals than you got mining. You have then wasted time, and thus you have lost money. I'm going somewhere with this.

You complain that you had to pay 1.4 million for a 3 hour job... For how many shuttles? Let's do some math here.

Let's say you want to make 300 Caldari shuttles, using an unresearched BPO. At this time of writing, Tritanium costs 5.50 ISK/pu (that's per unit, in case you were wondering).

That would make the mineral costs for each shuttle 15,279.00 ISK.

Multiply that by 300, you get 4,583,700.00 ISK.

Now let's say it costs that 1.4 million to install the job, which will happen to take 3 hours. That makes the install cost per shuttle a whopping 4,666.67 ISK.

Add the mineral costs to the install costs, you get 19,945.67 ISK per shuttle. This is what you'd need to sell these shuttles at if there were no broker fees or taxes in order to break even.

Multiply that by 300, and you get 5,983,701.00 ISK. But we're not done yet. Now you want to sell these shuttles, and unfortunately there are taxes and broker fees.

Unskilled (i.e., without the Broker Relations or Accounting skills), and at neutral standings, your sell order will cost 1% of the total order value to set up. Taxes will be an additional 1%, so in total that is 2%. Let's say you wanted to make a 10% profit. You'd need to sell each shuttle at 21,940.24 ISK per shuttle, for a total of 6,582,071.10 ISK. Your order would show that you would get 6,450,429.68 ISK. Why?

Because you're paying 131,641.42 ISK between taxes and broker fees. It's important to note that the broker fee is non-refundable. Taxes only come in to play when someone actually buys the product. So you're now getting 21,501.44 ISK per shuttle, and your profit is now around 8%.

This is above costs, and gets you some profit, so this is what you'd sell it at, regardless of what anyone else was selling it at. Your mission is to make profit, let everyone else sell below costs and lose their money. Your products will sell eventually, but if you think they should sell faster, try moving them to a different region to sell.

My point to all of this? I'm saying, don't complain about the costs. The market will adapt to the costs. You should too.

I find this to be a sound explanation of how things work. Please, someone correct me if I've made a mistake somewhere. In closing I'd just like to apologize for the awkward spacing of the sentences. I wanted to make it easier to read & follow.