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Average character skill points for PVP?

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-09-07 07:31:52 UTC
oh for...

here.

I've seen guys with 1/100th of my SP being better tacklers than I am, and guys with like 1/10th of it in thrashers soloing out 2 thoraxes.

SP doesn't matter that much. Pilot skill and attitude is what matters, together with a critical thinking about how to setup your ship.

And tipps there is fine and dandy. I myself have thermodynamics 5 for the same reason I have cloaking 5 and multitasking 5: OCD. Can't stand having one skill at 4 and the rest at 5. I don't even overheat that much.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#82 - 2014-09-07 07:46:22 UTC
I only pvp drunk so that's like a -20% disadvantage that having thermodynamics 5 will never overcome Cool

I should really just have like a 10-20m sp alt that barely costs anything when I get podded

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2014-09-07 09:07:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
900k SP a guy won't even be able to properly fit a proper frig doctrine, let alone anything bigger. WTF you guys talking about
We're talking about at what point you stop being useless in PvP in various scenarios, which is what the OP was asking for.

Quote:
I don't think OP's question was "how many SPs are needed to be hero tackle"
…and that is pretty much why a figure as high as 900k was mentioned rather than, say, ~100k.



cpu, power grid, and weapon upgrade V are 1 mil by themselves. And without them, any fit is mostly useless barring hero tackle, simply because you won't be able to fit most doctrines. Even the all mighty derptron you love so much will have fitting problems and will need even more fitting rigs/mods.

Let's add t2 guns, gunnery V and a single small weapon system are another half mill, specialization not included. And those are pretty much mandatory in any small gang worth the name, but for argument sake let's assume you can make do with IV.

Let's add a racial frig to IV as a ultra basic starter point, some nav skills, basic tackle, targeting and gunnery support, jury rigging III, a couple of other rigging skills, thermodynamics even just to III.

We're way past the million SP. And yeah, before that, you're useless in anything barring hero tackle or in such an oversized blob it wouldn't even matter if you were there actually afk or not.



Wanna consider anything bigger than a frig?
Okay. Let's see in how many cruiser doctrine you can get with 900k sp. None.
I'd really like to see you flying a skirmish nomen in a fleet when you have 20km less range than the rest of the gang because of no t2 ammo, no gunnery support, no racial cruiser to V, missing every single shot because you're way out of optimal, untill youget blapped because you run out of cap with indecent cap skills and high speed manouvering, or simply because you're so slow you lag behind too much.



So again, wtf you talking about.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#84 - 2014-09-07 09:35:48 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
cpu, power grid, and weapon upgrade V are 1 mil by themselves
…none of which are necessary to not be useless.

Quote:
So again, wtf you talking about.
Again: we're talking about at what point you stop being useless in PvP in various scenario. It's not rocket science.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-09-07 09:44:54 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
900k SP a guy won't even be able to properly fit a proper frig doctrine, let alone anything bigger. WTF you guys talking about
We're talking about at what point you stop being useless in PvP in various scenarios, which is what the OP was asking for.

Quote:
I don't think OP's question was "how many SPs are needed to be hero tackle"
…and that is pretty much why a figure as high as 900k was mentioned rather than, say, ~100k.



cpu, power grid, and weapon upgrade V are 1 mil by themselves. And without them, any fit is mostly useless barring hero tackle, simply because you won't be able to fit most doctrines. Even the all mighty derptron you love so much will have fitting problems and will need even more fitting rigs/mods.

Let's add t2 guns, gunnery V and a single small weapon system are another half mill, specialization not included. And those are pretty much mandatory in any small gang worth the name, but for argument sake let's assume you can make do with IV.

Let's add a racial frig to IV as a ultra basic starter point, some nav skills, basic tackle, targeting and gunnery support, jury rigging III, a couple of other rigging skills, thermodynamics even just to III.

We're way past the million SP. And yeah, before that, you're useless in anything barring hero tackle or in such an oversized blob it wouldn't even matter if you were there actually afk or not.



Wanna consider anything bigger than a frig?
Okay. Let's see in how many cruiser doctrine you can get with 900k sp. None.
I'd really like to see you flying a skirmish nomen in a fleet when you have 20km less range than the rest of the gang because of no t2 ammo, no gunnery support, no racial cruiser to V, missing every single shot because you're way out of optimal, untill youget blapped because you run out of cap with indecent cap skills and high speed manouvering, or simply because you're so slow you lag behind too much.



So again, wtf you talking about.


I once saw a monkey dance a waltz with a giraffe. Your argument is invalid.

On a more serious note, though, I've seen plenty of useless pilots with more than twice my SP, and I've seen guys with less than 2mil getting kills against them. So, your argument is still invalid. Maybe, where you're from, EVE is serious business and those without a resume need not apply. Down here at ground level though, where we're still connected to reality and we're not doubled over smelling our own farts, EVE is still just a game, where you're only as useless as you want to be.

Elitists like you are barring the way for new players getting a foot into PVP more than any amount of skill points.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-09-07 10:46:28 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
900k SP a guy won't even be able to properly fit a proper frig doctrine, let alone anything bigger. WTF you guys talking about
We're talking about at what point you stop being useless in PvP in various scenarios, which is what the OP was asking for.

Quote:
I don't think OP's question was "how many SPs are needed to be hero tackle"
…and that is pretty much why a figure as high as 900k was mentioned rather than, say, ~100k.



cpu, power grid, and weapon upgrade V are 1 mil by themselves. And without them, any fit is mostly useless barring hero tackle, simply because you won't be able to fit most doctrines. Even the all mighty derptron you love so much will have fitting problems and will need even more fitting rigs/mods.

Let's add t2 guns, gunnery V and a single small weapon system are another half mill, specialization not included. And those are pretty much mandatory in any small gang worth the name, but for argument sake let's assume you can make do with IV.

Let's add a racial frig to IV as a ultra basic starter point, some nav skills, basic tackle, targeting and gunnery support, jury rigging III, a couple of other rigging skills, thermodynamics even just to III.

We're way past the million SP. And yeah, before that, you're useless in anything barring hero tackle or in such an oversized blob it wouldn't even matter if you were there actually afk or not.



Wanna consider anything bigger than a frig?
Okay. Let's see in how many cruiser doctrine you can get with 900k sp. None.
I'd really like to see you flying a skirmish nomen in a fleet when you have 20km less range than the rest of the gang because of no t2 ammo, no gunnery support, no racial cruiser to V, missing every single shot because you're way out of optimal, untill youget blapped because you run out of cap with indecent cap skills and high speed manouvering, or simply because you're so slow you lag behind too much.



So again, wtf you talking about.

the noobs in my alliance would like a word with you. they be doing pretty fine by themselves.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Minty Aroma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-09-07 11:07:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:


2% more damage disappears in the margin of error on hit chances, so does 4% more falloff. But again, opportunity cost: how will those 2.5M extra SP in gunnery help you when you can't even target my ship (which is what I bought with the same SP)? A 4% speed boost (or, more accurately, speed boost boost) might make enough of a difference, but at a cost of 2½ weeks when it can be easily compensated for in other ways? No, not worth it.



The thing about level 5 skills is that they all make a small difference, and it's the total of all those small differences that make a large and significant difference to the outcome.

Seriously though, thermo 5 is ridiculously good, when you train a performance skill from 4 to 5 and can actually feel the difference then it's one damn good support skill. Also think about training some of the strategic cruiser skills to 5 as both thermo 5 and T3 cruiser 5 will let you overheat almost constantly in all skirmish style fights.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-09-07 12:01:04 UTC
Minty Aroma wrote:
Tippia wrote:


2% more damage disappears in the margin of error on hit chances, so does 4% more falloff. But again, opportunity cost: how will those 2.5M extra SP in gunnery help you when you can't even target my ship (which is what I bought with the same SP)? A 4% speed boost (or, more accurately, speed boost boost) might make enough of a difference, but at a cost of 2½ weeks when it can be easily compensated for in other ways? No, not worth it.



The thing about level 5 skills is that they all make a small difference, and it's the total of all those small differences that make a large and significant difference to the outcome.

Seriously though, thermo 5 is ridiculously good, when you train a performance skill from 4 to 5 and can actually feel the difference then it's one damn good support skill. Also think about training some of the strategic cruiser skills to 5 as both thermo 5 and T3 cruiser 5 will let you overheat almost constantly in all skirmish style fights.

Even then, reward vs time spent is a bit iffy. lvl4 skills are pretty much the best bang for buck, where putting them at 5 will probably take months, and sometimes years to make the return.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-09-07 12:23:54 UTC
OP, I'm just over an year old with about 21M SP. I'll give you my take on SP needed to be a decent and effective PVPer, which is obviously a bit more than 'not totally useless'.

1. Getting solo frig and dessy kills: 3-4 M SP (t1 frig and destroyer of 1 race to IV, t2 equipment which needs a few lvl Vs, for small weaponry for example)

2. Flying in t2 frigate gangs, getting to know all different races and (small) weapon systems: 8-10 M SP (you'll need to train all racial frigates to V, all small T2 weapon prereqs to V, some T2 ship prereqs to V as well). You may choose to specialize just in 1-2 races here, but I personally found it fun and interesting to learn them all at least at frig/dessy level.

3. Being effective in T1 cruiser gangs: 15-20 M SP (all racial cruisers to IV, most low-rank support skills to V because, on a cruiser, +5% in dmg, rep capability, tank, etc. does make a worthwhile difference; additionally T2 weapon prereqs take time)

4. Then it's about 3M SP for every cruiser race you want to take to T2 (lvl 5s for racial cruisers, T2 weapon prereqs and T2 cruiser hull prereqs are quite long to train... plus you'll probably want to take the T2 cruiser hull skill to IV). This is what I'm struggling a bit with atm, being able to fly decently an Ishtar, Guardian or Rapier takes about 2 months for each race.


To sum it up, the main time sinks are the lvl Vs, that you need to unlock (in order of importance):

a) T2 equipment
b) T2 weaponry (and - especially useful - T2 ammo)
c) T2 hulls


While it's true that the final +5% (or whatever) bonus that lvl Vs give compared to lvl IVs is not always essential, you need to consider that lvl V time (and SP) sinks are unavoidable to unlock widely-used hulls and equipment.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Celise Katelo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-09-07 13:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Celise Katelo
My skill tree is a utter cluster-mind blow up of what not to do.... Shocked

I skill trained into as many ships as possible, because they look good. Without having the correct skills - Check
Well partly true, i kept changing my mind into what i wanted to fly. But my goal was being able to do level 4 security missions.

I went from flying Hybrid Turret ships:

Merlin - Cormorant - Ferox - Rokh (Skills not optimal, enough to complete what i was doing)

Then along came the Gila with its new ship design & changes

This is when i first started to truly pay attention into what i truly needed to train for... work in progress. But having super fun flying this little ship.


As for pvp skills... Truly lacking just about everything.

EVEBoard ...Just over 60million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
#91 - 2014-09-07 14:34:18 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Hadrian Blackstone wrote:
If my present self and my former self from 6 months ago dueled in the same ship, I'd kick the crap out of the former.

Soloing is an entirely different animal.


That's because you know more than you did 6 months ago, not because you have 6 months more SP. I'm telling you this from a mostly solo pilot's perspective.


No it's not. It's mainly because I have almost twice the DPS, HP, and agility skills. I fly Gallente so it doesn't take much training to orbit at 500m and hit F1.

I'm telling you this from a solo pilot's perspective.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-09-07 14:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Hadrian Blackstone wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Hadrian Blackstone wrote:
If my present self and my former self from 6 months ago dueled in the same ship, I'd kick the crap out of the former.

Soloing is an entirely different animal.


That's because you know more than you did 6 months ago, not because you have 6 months more SP. I'm telling you this from a mostly solo pilot's perspective.


No it's not. It's mainly because I have almost twice the DPS, HP, and agility skills. I fly Gallente so it doesn't take much training to orbit at 500m and hit F1.

I'm telling you this from a solo pilot's perspective.


Well if that's how you fly, then you're doing it wrong. I fly Gallente too. In fact, I have over 200 kills with the Ishkur. Great ship that one. Anyway, the last time I got into a fight where all I did was orbit.... I can't even remember. Wait until you take on someone with skill, who switches range and ammo on you unexpectedly, or uses the environment like asteroids and stuff to their advantage. And you're in for a real shock when someone drops their drones on you, abandons them, then drops a new flight, and starts switching between their drones to keep you confused as to which ones to shoot. Oh there is a lot more to solo PVP than just orbit and F1 and when you tell me that's what you do, I'm inclined to not believe you.

16-18 huh. You're a newbro, you've still got a lot of learning to do, so you can be forgiven for your ignorance, it's not wilful. Yet.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-09-07 16:14:11 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
900k SP a guy won't even be able to properly fit a proper frig doctrine, let alone anything bigger. WTF you guys talking about
We're talking about at what point you stop being useless in PvP in various scenarios, which is what the OP was asking for.

Quote:
I don't think OP's question was "how many SPs are needed to be hero tackle"
…and that is pretty much why a figure as high as 900k was mentioned rather than, say, ~100k.



cpu, power grid, and weapon upgrade V are 1 mil by themselves. And without them, any fit is mostly useless barring hero tackle, simply because you won't be able to fit most doctrines. Even the all mighty derptron you love so much will have fitting problems and will need even more fitting rigs/mods.

Let's add t2 guns, gunnery V and a single small weapon system are another half mill, specialization not included. And those are pretty much mandatory in any small gang worth the name, but for argument sake let's assume you can make do with IV.

Let's add a racial frig to IV as a ultra basic starter point, some nav skills, basic tackle, targeting and gunnery support, jury rigging III, a couple of other rigging skills, thermodynamics even just to III.

We're way past the million SP. And yeah, before that, you're useless in anything barring hero tackle or in such an oversized blob it wouldn't even matter if you were there actually afk or not.



Wanna consider anything bigger than a frig?
Okay. Let's see in how many cruiser doctrine you can get with 900k sp. None.
I'd really like to see you flying a skirmish nomen in a fleet when you have 20km less range than the rest of the gang because of no t2 ammo, no gunnery support, no racial cruiser to V, missing every single shot because you're way out of optimal, untill youget blapped because you run out of cap with indecent cap skills and high speed manouvering, or simply because you're so slow you lag behind too much.



So again, wtf you talking about.


I once saw a monkey dance a waltz with a giraffe. Your argument is invalid.

On a more serious note, though, I've seen plenty of useless pilots with more than twice my SP, and I've seen guys with less than 2mil getting kills against them. So, your argument is still invalid. Maybe, where you're from, EVE is serious business and those without a resume need not apply. Down here at ground level though, where we're still connected to reality and we're not doubled over smelling our own farts, EVE is still just a game, where you're only as useless as you want to be.

Elitists like you are barring the way for new players getting a foot into PVP more than any amount of skill points.


Lol. I am a new player, my character has 7 months of effective training. I m just realistic about what i need to go against competent opponents, barring rare happenings.

Might be that my experience is mostly soloing or small gang activity in an area like black rise, might have been different in null perhaps. But it is a fact that a 900k sp pilot in a gimp fit is pretty much relegated to hero tackle or cannon fodder where i live.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#94 - 2014-09-07 16:22:29 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:

Lol. I am a new player, my character has 7 months of effective training. I m just realistic about what i need to go against competent opponents, barring rare happenings.

Might be that my experience is mostly soloing or small gang activity in an area like black rise, might have been different in null perhaps. But it is a fact that a 900k sp pilot in a gimp fit is pretty much relegated to hero tackle or cannon fodder where i live.

sounds like you should make some more friendsBlink

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-09-07 16:32:02 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:

Lol. I am a new player, my character has 7 months of effective training. I m just realistic about what i need to go against competent opponents, barring rare happenings.

Might be that my experience is mostly soloing or small gang activity in an area like black rise, might have been different in null perhaps. But it is a fact that a 900k sp pilot in a gimp fit is pretty much relegated to hero tackle or cannon fodder where i live.

sounds like you should make some more friendsBlink



Got all the friends i need and i'm in a great corp, which supported me since i were a noob with meta guns. I simply like solo-small gang more than blobbing the **** out of everything in a huge fleet Big smile
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#96 - 2014-09-07 16:50:15 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:

Lol. I am a new player, my character has 7 months of effective training. I m just realistic about what i need to go against competent opponents, barring rare happenings.

Might be that my experience is mostly soloing or small gang activity in an area like black rise, might have been different in null perhaps. But it is a fact that a 900k sp pilot in a gimp fit is pretty much relegated to hero tackle or cannon fodder where i live.

sounds like you should make some more friendsBlink



Got all the friends i need and i'm in a great corp, which supported me since i were a noob with meta guns. I simply like solo-small gang more than blobbing the **** out of everything in a huge fleet Big smile

likewise, o7

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#97 - 2014-09-07 17:29:16 UTC
[Crucifier, Crucifier fit]

Damage Control I
Drone Damage Amplifier I
Drone Damage Amplifier I

Limited 1MN Afterburner I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script

200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I


Hobgoblin I x3
Hobgoblin I x5
Hobgoblin I x1

Flyable in 2 days. Costs less than 5 mil, you can grind up 10 of these per day on level 1 missions very easily.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#98 - 2014-09-08 22:03:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…in fact, I'll use myself as an example.

Observe this magnificent character sheet.


I once saw a thread in C&P. This comes a close second.

You can blather on all you want, but the people telling you that you're doing it wrong are spot on. You should listen to them.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#99 - 2014-09-08 22:26:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[Crucifier, Crucifier fit]Flyable in 2 days. Costs less than 5 mil, you can grind up 10 of these per day on level 1 missions very easily.

I would love to see a Baltec Derpifier Fleet in action.

That fit is really quite good for a new player. Thanks Baltec. Hope you don't mind if I recommend that to a few characters I know.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#100 - 2014-09-08 22:33:31 UTC
As for the actual OP's question, you're getting a lot of stupid answers and bad advice, OP.

Technically, you only need enough skills to get in a ship to be somewhat useful. You don't need guns or tackle. You can just sit there and wait for the other guys to blow you up. The time it takes for them to do that (unless they were clever enough to save you for last) is time that the rest of your group isn't being attacked, so you're technically being useful (you're an EHP paperweight.) I don't think that's what you're asking, though.

Realistically ~10M SP if you know EXACTLY what to train or ~20M SP if you don't is a good rule of thumb for when to start PVPing if you want to PULL YOUR WEIGHT and not just go along for the ride.

Here's an anecdote that you might find enlightening: Sard Caid, a live-streamer and one of the best solo PVPers in the game, thought he'd make a series of videos on a new alt, to show that PVPing can be done with a low SP character. He knew exactly what to train, he trained the guy for ~ 2 months (iirc,) and then he ended up doing nothing but blow up over and over and over. Having all skills but one to V is one thing. Having no skills to V puts you at such a tremendous disadvantage that you'll probably quit out of frustration.