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Eve-Bet Revenant Event Feedback

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Rixx Javix
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1 - 2014-09-06 14:19:53 UTC
My own thoughts on the Event.

5,000 players in Nisuwa showed up to explode a rare Revenant Super-Carrier under increasingly difficult conditions. Were you there? What was your experience like? I'm starting this thread because Erlendur made me do eet.

Was this a CCP server test? Or was this a great time had by all?

Feedback, opinions, experiences, let 'em fly.

http://eveoganda.blogspot.com

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#2 - 2014-09-06 14:32:57 UTC
I was there, yet i should have not, knowing in the back of my mind what are max TiDi battles... i say never again after i do one... but this neveragain has to come and i will probalby go for another after some time.

PS. It was fun in the moment i crashed for some reson(with many other people from what i heard on comms) and i was like... "finaly i can go sleep". P

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2014-09-06 14:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Rixx Javix wrote:
My own thoughts on the Event.

5,000 players in Nisuwa showed up to explode a rare Revenant Super-Carrier under increasingly difficult conditions. Were you there? What was your experience like? I'm starting this thread because Erlendur made me do eet.

Was this a CCP server test? Or was this a great time had by all?

Feedback, opinions, experiences, let 'em fly.
For background then first reading https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ where CCP Veritas provided a comparison on the fight in HED-GP in Jan this year with the fight in 6VDT-H in Jul 2013 is very helpful. It establishes the terminology we use internally at CCP and a basis for a comparison to Nisuwa. The technical part at the end of https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-battle-of-asakai-and-poinen-must-burn-by-the-numbers/ by CCP Masterplan is also relevant because like Asakai then Nisuwa happened in empire and not in 0.0.

All done reading? Excellent, let's continue.

Let's start with that whether a solarsystem is reinforced or not doesn't change the general progression of load and ultimately lag (when the load becomes too much), it only changes the scale at which it happens. The same applies to whether an event is in 0.0 or empire, it just changes the scale. The best-case scenario is reinforced in 0.0, worst-case is not reinforced in empire.

This event was in a reinforced node, the solarsystem was hosted next to Jita, so it was the best hardware experience; but it was in empire so Crime Watch was a part of load, monitoring the fight and calculating security status (but not dispatching CONCORD). For details on Crime Watch, please see the Asakai devblog. (We also saw load in other parts of the cluster, i.e., on other nodes than where Nisuwa was hosted, e.g., the Bounty Service spiked to 100% CPU load for a while during the fight.)

In terms of load there are 3 stages: Controlled CPU, 100% CPU but controlled Time Dilation, 100% CPU and 10% Time Dilation and Dogma Lateness setting in (see the HED-GP devblog for details on these terms).

Looking at the numbers this morning then the Dogma Lateness of Nisuwa (at 4920 pilots) was somewhat similar to HED-GP (at 4000 pilots)*. When we add the fact what Crime Watch was running in Nisuwa (empire) but not HED-GP (0.0) then performance per pilot was much better in Nisuwa than HED-GP. The end result was probably similar since there were approx. 25% more pilots in Nisuwa.

* These population numbers are from population recording at 20 minute intervals, we've yet to establish what the second-by-second peak was for Nisuwa.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-09-06 15:07:01 UTC
I was there, it was manageable, but not necessarily fun

No FiBo helped a ton I think

I wish we would have camped the out gate and not bothered to even go in the system, I would have probably run out of ammo, as it was i entered system with FULL guns (20 rounds) locked the Revenant and shot it with one gun, when I left 4 hours later, it had 14 rounds in it, so I got off 5 shots in 4 hours
Rixx Javix
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#5 - 2014-09-06 15:08:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rixx Javix
Excellent, and I have read those reports believe it or not. So this begs the question, what are our options? Given the technical limitations on server load and the increasing amount of reporting needing to be done, crime-watch, drones, etc., what are legitimate options for massive fleet battles or events?

Is it time to consider a hard limit on per system player numbers? What else can be done?

PS: I'm no fan of limits and I would never recommend them. Perhaps this is just one of those things that has no real answer. At least, not yet. 5,000 ships, each with their own modules, guns, drones, effects, sec status, etc, etc. There is only so much computing power available.

http://eveoganda.blogspot.com

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2014-09-06 15:27:30 UTC
For those interested then Rixx and I have a discussion here https://twitter.com/RixxJavix/status/508243959676551168 (before this forum thread was posted) and here https://twitter.com/RixxJavix/status/508258640868802560 (after the thread was posted, use that one if you want to participate).

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2014-09-06 15:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Rixx Javix wrote:
Excellent, and I have read those reports believe it or not. So this begs the question, what are our options? Given the technical limitations on server load and the increasing amount of reporting needing to be done, crime-watch, drones, etc., what are legitimate options for massive fleet battles or events?

Is it time to consider a hard limit on per system player numbers? What else can be done?

PS: I'm no fan of limits and I would never recommend them. Perhaps this is just one of those things that has no real answer. At least, not yet. 5,000 ships, each with their own modules, guns, drones, effects, sec status, etc, etc. There is only so much computing power available.
Hard population cap is not the answer; that will become a tactic where the cap will be used to lock people out and avoid a fight.

In terms of answers:

  1. More servers :) Just this week we were preparing RFPs for new hardware, to replace TQ.
  2. Team Gridlock is continuing on rewriting Dogma and on the Brain-in-a-Box project. There are also other things on the table such as drone-swarms where all drones act in a swarm like one drone, this would be similar to the grouped gun system. Given the O(n^2) nature of drones this would significantly reduce load in certain scenarios.
  3. The last part is more tricky and the one we would appreciate feedback: How can we spread large fights over multiple systems in such a manner that it's fun for everyone involved? Some sort of a simultaneous mega-objective across multiple systems but only when there are many involved so you could still have single-system fights depending on man-power (we don't want to require people to always have 3000+ pilot fleets). This happened in B-R since there were fights in the staging systems and Titans and fleets were intercepted en route to B-R.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

Talon Draygo
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-09-06 16:13:44 UTC
Well without a kill mail the whole thing was a complete waste of time in my opinion.
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
Pandemic Unicorns
#9 - 2014-09-06 16:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
I'm sure it's all very impressive technically, but as a playing experience it's fairly horrible. Not trying to moan about this, that's just my genuine opinion. When you have 5 minutes before the game responds to a warp command, and modules start doing random buggy things, that's way beyond any sort of reasonable limit.

CCP Explorer's suggestion above of spreading fleet/alliance/coalitition objectives across multiple systems simultaneously seems to be the inevitable answer for sov warfare setups, if there's a basic limit of how much MHz of processing power can be applied per system.
Sum Olgy
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-09-06 16:56:22 UTC
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant wrote:
I'm sure it's all very impressive technically, but as a playing experience it's fairly horrible. Not trying to moan about this, that's just my genuine opinion. When you have 5 minutes before the game responds to a warp command, and modules start doing random buggy things, that's way beyond any sort of reasonable limit.



All of the above except I am moaning about it. We customers have been experiencing lag for far too long. Yes CCP, you keep coming up with grand announcements over how you've improved this and how you've analysed that but the lag remains.

While I was there last night I got out as soon as possible. It wasn't an enjoyable game it was a tedious wait. The plus side is I got to catch up with a couple of people I haven't chatted to in a long time. Until, that is, chat got so slow it was taking seconds before words appeared.

I'm all for content generation and I love the social/group side of the game but not when I have to experience the game in that form.
DarklordKarn
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#11 - 2014-09-06 17:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: DarklordKarn
Kill mail, token "achievement item" (example Revenant scrap metal delivered to everyone who was in system at time of kill)

OR Skill points award for everyone in system, for wasting 5 hours of our lifes we aren't getting back...

Combined wasted time, for this event, 1041 Days. or 2.8 Years...


gg



;)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#12 - 2014-09-06 17:18:25 UTC
the solution would have been to spawn a second revenant 5j away in a cyno jammed system :P

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#13 - 2014-09-06 17:32:00 UTC
Don't act like teenagers about this, ye knew exactly what ye were infor.

Personally I had an awesome/awful(in equal measure) experience.

Cool event , glad I got to take a shot at the ship.
I Hate tidi and despise that modules cease working, in all honesty I could put up with it if I knew my modules would work, that said , good job to ccp for shoveling hamsters into the machine like they did and kept the node running, seriously o7.

I'm not going to demand the killmail, but I would certainly like to hear something about it from ccp.
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
Pandemic Unicorns
#14 - 2014-09-06 17:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
Couple quick thoughts:


1) Is it possible to just turn off crimewatch in a LS system undergoing this level of tidi? Not an ideal solution, but at the same time not really a big loss in giant fleet situations either.

2) How about stopping drone use entirely in particularly heavy tidi? People can still turn up, just have to use non-drone ships. Obviously this sort of artificial limitation isn't at all ideal, and the droneswarm changes mentioned above will deal with the issue longterm, but if it makes big fleet fights more bearable that's clearly superior to the current situation.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#15 - 2014-09-06 17:40:30 UTC
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant wrote:
Couple quick thoughts:


1) Is it possible to just turn off crimewatch in a LS system undergoing this level of tidi? Not an ideal solution, but at the same time not really a big loss in giant fleet situations either.

2) How about stopping drone use entirely in particularly heavy tidi? People can still turn up, just have to use non-drone ships. Obviously this sort of artificial limitation isn't at all ideal, and the droneswarm changes mentioned above will deal with the issue longterm, but if it makes big fleet fights more bearable that's clearly superior to the current situation.

1) thought the same thing

2)to restrictive, carriers would lose way to much functionality
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#16 - 2014-09-06 18:41:42 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
  • The last part is more tricky and the one we would appreciate feedback: How can we spread large fights over multiple systems in such a manner that it's fun for everyone involved? Some sort of a simultaneous mega-objective across multiple systems but only when there are many involved so you could still have single-system fights depending on man-power (we don't want to require people to always have 3000+ pilot fleets). This happened in B-R since there were fights in the staging systems and Titans and fleets were intercepted en route to B-R.


  • Cyno Jam / Prevent normal jump portals in the event of a timer, not just within the target system, but within [x] jumps.

    You'd need brain-in-a-box as the lag would otherwise be horrific as people jump through, but it would present more opportunities for engaging an incoming fleet.
    Jandice Ymladris
    Aurora Arcology
    #17 - 2014-09-06 20:17:30 UTC
    Bringing up good points here & the criticism is founded. However, the Tidi was to be expedted, just not this bad I'd think. Carrier kill events have been part of eve's entertainment for a while now (check the ingame event forum, usually has one lying around)

    The high number of attendees was a big surprise however, albeit the fact it would be a revenant kill event & it being backed by CCP probably did contribute to people flocking like it like bees to honey.

    Published a report on it: Revenant supercarrier destroyed as promotional stunt by Eve-Bet

    I did add your blogpost on the Tidi as one of the informative links Rixx Javix, hope you don't mind.

    Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology

    Malcolm Otsolen
    Un4seen Development
    Sev3rance
    #18 - 2014-09-06 20:28:39 UTC
    Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
    Don't act like teenagers about this, ye knew exactly what ye were infor.

    Personally I had an awesome/awful(in equal measure) experience.

    Cool event , glad I got to take a shot at the ship.
    I Hate tidi and despise that modules cease working, in all honesty I could put up with it if I knew my modules would work, that said , good job to ccp for shoveling hamsters into the machine like they did and kept the node running, seriously o7.

    I'm not going to demand the killmail, but I would certainly like to hear something about it from ccp.


    No sir, I did not know as a new player. Never ever heard of TiDi nor do I like it. I will never do such a event again and if this what Null Sec is like I will stay in low sec or unsub.
    CCP Explorer
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #19 - 2014-09-06 21:20:26 UTC
    MonkeyBusiness Thiesant wrote:
    Couple quick thoughts:


    1) Is it possible to just turn off crimewatch in a LS system undergoing this level of tidi? Not an ideal solution, but at the same time not really a big loss in giant fleet situations either.

    2) How about stopping drone use entirely in particularly heavy tidi? People can still turn up, just have to use non-drone ships. Obviously this sort of artificial limitation isn't at all ideal, and the droneswarm changes mentioned above will deal with the issue longterm, but if it makes big fleet fights more bearable that's clearly superior to the current situation.
    No on both, because if we did that then Time Dilation stops being a method to mitigate/spread load and instead becomes a game mechanic.

    Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

    Rixx Javix
    Stay Frosty.
    A Band Apart.
    #20 - 2014-09-06 21:29:59 UTC
    It is always difficult to provide feedback regarding one aspect of Eve given how inter-connected all aspects of the game are. And, given what Greyscale just told us it appears that Null Sec/Sov changes are well underway. Obviously this has been a hot topic for a long time. I mention Sov/Null since that is the underpinning for any discussion about massive fleet load, TiDi, and lag. Even when discussing live events.

    In the case of individual ship targets, such as the Revenant, it remains a challenge that event planners must address. It would be hard to imagine a way to spread the load in such an instance.

    Having said that, it wouldn't be hard to imagine three super-carriers - one each in different low-sec regions - having effectively spread the load that landed on Nisuwa. Again, this might be incredibly difficult to plan in most cases.

    System limiters are not an effective answer, especially for event planners like myself that do not have CCP assistance (beyond reinforcement). (Which is always appreciated btw.)

    In the end, as far as events are concerned, the challenge must land squarely on the shoulders of the event planners. Until the servers are updated, until Null Sov is addressed, until the technical challenges (such as drone swarms, missile spam, crime-watch, etc) are addressed - TiDi limitations are a known factor that must be considered.

    I strongly believe that Live Events are an important part of Eve Online and that further incorporation of them into the universe is critical. It is up to us, in conjunction with CCP, to plan and prepare events with the known challenges in mind.

    http://eveoganda.blogspot.com

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