These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Average character skill points for PVP?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#21 - 2014-09-06 11:42:47 UTC
We are even sometimes missing some newbros in T1 hero tackle frigs in fleets because everyone is flying the high SP ships...
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-09-06 11:45:42 UTC
Ka'Narlist wrote:
We are even sometimes missing some newbros in T1 hero tackle frigs in fleets because everyone is flying the high SP ships...


Give me 1 billion ISK before the engagement and I'll hero tackle for you P.

I promise I won't run away with your ISK.

Grrr.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2014-09-06 11:47:40 UTC
Jackie Cane wrote:
No battleship skills?..... yikes
Battleships are for sissies. P
Abominare
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#24 - 2014-09-06 11:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Abominare
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Abominare]

Quote:
**** you're missing all the drug skills too it looks like. Bad Nav supports, bad (well they're actually ok, but not at your SP level they should have been V'd about 100m sp ago) weapon supports.
No, the important skills are there, and again, you're pointing to skills that would have been a waste of SP at V. The differences are utterly minute and trivially compensated for by proper flying or by simply having other options at your disposal.

2% more damage disappears in the margin of error on hit chances, so does 4% more falloff. But again, opportunity cost: how will those 2.5M extra SP in gunnery help you when you can't even target my ship (which is what I bought with the same SP)? A 4% speed boost (or, more accurately, speed boost boost) might make enough of a difference, but at a cost of 2½ weeks when it can be easily compensated for in other ways? No, not worth it.



The rest of the arguments are just frankly a lost cause on you, so lets just focus on this one first at least.

You have 149m skill points and without even going through the complications of fleet composition dynamics we can point to one thing.

You can't win a mirror match up on a single combat ship you own against some one with a properly trained account.

They fly faster, they hit better, they can use boosters better (massively better since you have 0 skills in that avenue unless i missed it somewhere), they have that extra ounce of capacitor they have more than you, they heat better, fit ships tighter and so. You can hide these issues in large fleet fights for sure, because nothing really matters beyond hitting f1 and showing up, but the smaller you go the more and more apparent these things come.

Perfect skills are prized because they let you focus properly on the actual fight. You can more readily hone your skills. because you never find yourself wondering, did I lose that fight because I did something wrong or because I was lacking in xyz aspect. Or things like, I should be able to do X unless he has highspeed maneuvering V because I sure as **** dont.

You can sit your pod in virtually every sub battleship in the game for sure, but you can still easily get outclassed just off of skills by characters with a mere fraction of your sp. Thats why I say you have wasted SP. There's so many skills you could strip off that sheet and fix huge holes.

Like I tried to say earlier, you have an awesome amount of SP, and can be very proud of that, but your claim of magnificent skill sheets that are done isn't justified.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-09-06 11:57:01 UTC
In breaking news and on a related PVP note, I may have accidentally just developed a viable Retribution fit.

Will update with PVP success stories as they roll in.

Won't update on failures though.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-09-06 12:00:52 UTC
Abominare wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Abominare]

Quote:
**** you're missing all the drug skills too it looks like. Bad Nav supports, bad (well they're actually ok, but not at your SP level they should have been V'd about 100m sp ago) weapon supports.
No, the important skills are there, and again, you're pointing to skills that would have been a waste of SP at V. The differences are utterly minute and trivially compensated for by proper flying or by simply having other options at your disposal.

2% more damage disappears in the margin of error on hit chances, so does 4% more falloff. But again, opportunity cost: how will those 2.5M extra SP in gunnery help you when you can't even target my ship (which is what I bought with the same SP)? A 4% speed boost (or, more accurately, speed boost boost) might make enough of a difference, but at a cost of 2½ weeks when it can be easily compensated for in other ways? No, not worth it.



The rest of the arguments are just frankly a lost cause on you, so lets just focus on this one first at least.

You have 149m skill points and without even going through the complications of fleet composition dynamics we can point to one thing.

You can't win a mirror match up on a single combat ship you own against some one with a properly trained account.

They fly faster, they hit better, they can use boosters better (massively better since you have 0 skills in that avenue unless i missed it somewhere), they have that extra ounce of capacitor they have more than you, they heat better, fit ships tighter and so. You can hide these issues in large fleet fights for sure, because nothing really matters beyond hitting f1 and showing up, but the smaller you go the more and more apparent these things come.

Perfect skills are prized because they let you focus properly on the actual fight. You can more readily hone your skills. because you never find yourself wondering, did I lose that fight because I did something wrong or because I was lacking in xyz aspect. Or things like, I should be able to do X unless he has highspeed maneuvering V because I sure as **** dont.

You can sit your pod in virtually every sub cap in the game for sure, but you can still easily get outclassed just off of skills by characters with a mere fraction of your sp. Thats why I say you have wasted SP. There's so many skills you could strip off that sheet and fix huge holes.

Like I tried to say earlier, you have an awesome amount of SP, and can be very proud of that, but your claim of magnificent skill sheets that are done isn't justified.



You keep saying "wasted SP". I don't see it really as wasted, Tippia may not have V in Virtual Space Discombobuator Engineering V, but precisely by NOT training that skill to 5 and spending who knows how many months doing so, that time was spent getting more tools to use at a more than decent level. So perfect skills? No. Damn good and serviceable for almost everything? Hell yes.

Grrr.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#27 - 2014-09-06 12:07:53 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
In breaking news and on a related PVP note, I may have accidentally just developed a viable Retribution fit.

Will update with PVP success stories as they roll in.

Won't update on failures though.

can i have a look?
I love that ship.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2014-09-06 12:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Abominare wrote:
You can't win a mirror match up on a single combat ship you own against some one with a properly trained account.
Yes I can. Because there's something called “flying properly” and “knowing how to fight”. Witness every bought-character ALOD ever.

But more to the point, mirror match-ups don't happen so winning them is spectacularly irrelevant. Consequently, training for them is an effort in futility and means you are superbly unsuited for the non-mirror match-up (aka: every fight ever).

Quote:
You can sit your pod in virtually every sub battleship in the game for sure, but you can still easily get outclassed just off of skills by characters with a mere fraction of your sp.
Yes, but that has very little to do with my skills and a lot more to do with what the two of us chose to fly. That is why I have almost no wasted SP: because with 7 key exceptions, I can choose to do anything in the game. Everything you throw at me, I have a means to circumvent, nullify, and/or approach at my terms. The differences between IV and V, in particular, are so marginal that cancelling them out becomes very simple indeed.

Perfect skills are neat, but they are also insanely wasteful because it just means an even smaller fraction of the SP is needed to beat whatever it is you have perfected. Again, what good does your extra 2.5M gunnery support SP do you when your guns won't even fire? In fact, what good is the entire 47M SP skill group if your guns can't activate? And it takes all of 500 SP to make that happen…

So sure, my 13.5M gunnery SP could be outclassed by characters with someone who has 0.004% the SP invested as I do, but with perfect skills, he would only need 0.001%. I'm not sure that counts as an improvement. Blink

Quote:
Like I tried to say earlier, you have an awesome amount of SP, and can be very proud of that, but your claim of magnificent skill sheets that are done isn't justified.
Ah. So you didn't get the point of the magnificence, I take it. Lol

Azda Ja wrote:
You keep saying "wasted SP". I don't see it really as wasted, Tippia may not have V in Virtual Space Discombobuator Engineering V, but precisely by NOT training that skill to 5 and spending who knows how many months doing so, that time was spent getting more tools to use at a more than decent level.
Opportunity cost — it may not kill you as quickly as any other cost, but it does so more insidiously. P
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2014-09-06 12:19:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jackie Cane wrote:
No battleship skills?..... yikes
Battleships are for sissies. P

Straight
Abominare
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#30 - 2014-09-06 12:21:32 UTC
Azda Ja wrote:
Abominare wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Abominare]

Quote:
**** you're missing all the drug skills too it looks like. Bad Nav supports, bad (well they're actually ok, but not at your SP level they should have been V'd about 100m sp ago) weapon supports.
No, the important skills are there, and again, you're pointing to skills that would have been a waste of SP at V. The differences are utterly minute and trivially compensated for by proper flying or by simply having other options at your disposal.

2% more damage disappears in the margin of error on hit chances, so does 4% more falloff. But again, opportunity cost: how will those 2.5M extra SP in gunnery help you when you can't even target my ship (which is what I bought with the same SP)? A 4% speed boost (or, more accurately, speed boost boost) might make enough of a difference, but at a cost of 2½ weeks when it can be easily compensated for in other ways? No, not worth it.



The rest of the arguments are just frankly a lost cause on you, so lets just focus on this one first at least.

You have 149m skill points and without even going through the complications of fleet composition dynamics we can point to one thing.

You can't win a mirror match up on a single combat ship you own against some one with a properly trained account.

They fly faster, they hit better, they can use boosters better (massively better since you have 0 skills in that avenue unless i missed it somewhere), they have that extra ounce of capacitor they have more than you, they heat better, fit ships tighter and so. You can hide these issues in large fleet fights for sure, because nothing really matters beyond hitting f1 and showing up, but the smaller you go the more and more apparent these things come.

Perfect skills are prized because they let you focus properly on the actual fight. You can more readily hone your skills. because you never find yourself wondering, did I lose that fight because I did something wrong or because I was lacking in xyz aspect. Or things like, I should be able to do X unless he has highspeed maneuvering V because I sure as **** dont.

You can sit your pod in virtually every sub cap in the game for sure, but you can still easily get outclassed just off of skills by characters with a mere fraction of your sp. Thats why I say you have wasted SP. There's so many skills you could strip off that sheet and fix huge holes.

Like I tried to say earlier, you have an awesome amount of SP, and can be very proud of that, but your claim of magnificent skill sheets that are done isn't justified.



You keep saying "wasted SP". I don't see it really as wasted, Tippia may not have V in Virtual Space Discombobuator Engineering V, but precisely by NOT training that skill to 5 and spending who knows how many months doing so, that time was spent getting more tools to use at a more than decent level. So perfect skills? No. Damn good and serviceable for almost everything? Hell yes.


When talking about wasted SP a person is saying that there are skills trained that do not further a specific focus. So as Tippia stated that her goal for the character was to fly ships, especially since she wanted to start this conversation by posting in response to a pvp claim and pointing how magnificent her sheet was. In this case every point in industry becomes a wasted skill point. Now when you talk about high SP this isn't necessarily a bad thing since its quite possible to reach goals and say why the **** not (infact at her sp level she could fly a multitude of ships perfectly and have a lot of sp left over for why the **** not industry skills).

However, shes missing a bunch of glaring skills that should be at V. (and a few that aren't even trained to 1 to begin with), so we begin to question, well why do I have years of industry skills or the skills that should be relegated to one off alts like link boat skills.

So in the end we have a 149m sp character that still can't a single combat **** properly considering the amount of SP we had at our disposal.


Or lets put it this way, if she put it on the bazaar, you could probably get more isk for a 100m SP (or potentially even fewer sp) character that trained properly.

Again Im not trying to downplay that 149m sp isn't the coolest thing I've seen today, it ******* awesome I wish I had 149m sp. It just isn't spent properly to go around and brag that there are no more important skills to train and say that you won't bother with getting to 150m because you're too good for that.

Again, trying to stay on topic to the larger thread, I've been trying to point out that its those gaps in her core skills that mean a player can indeed catch up to her character and in this case actually surpass it because shes refusing to train important skills that directly impact her ability to fly ships. Even if they were perfect a new character can one day match her in specific roles.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-09-06 12:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
In breaking news and on a related PVP note, I may have accidentally just developed a viable Retribution fit.

Will update with PVP success stories as they roll in.

Won't update on failures though.

can i have a look?
I love that ship.


Hmm.....

I might send you an in-game mail cuz none of my friends are online right now and I need some second opinions on the concept. DWA opinions are especially welcome since, like me, you guys love your frigates. I'm still going to be trying it out as I have it whether I get told it's bad or not, but opinions now mean I have more to work with later if it turns out to be bad in practice and I need to revisit.

My first love will always be the Ishkur though, and I'm really only doing this because I finished training Amarr frigs V just yesterday.The Vengeance is too easy to figure out, but the Ret was actually a challenge. PG is terrible on it. I mean, PG is worse on a Wolf but autocannons don't use 10MW a piece Cry

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Daktar Jaxs
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2014-09-06 12:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daktar Jaxs
Tippia wrote:
Abominare wrote:
Theres tons of fleet comps out there that you simply can't fly because you're missing so many important skills still.
Not really, no — in fact, that's pretty much the driving principle of the entire build: being able to fly and fit any conceivable combination of kit — but you're getting closer to the real gap here… P


for a 50-60m SP character your combat skills would be ok-ish. for a 149m SP charatcer they're abysmal. i would be ashamed to admit i'd trained such a catastrofuck
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2014-09-06 12:32:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
baltec1 wrote:
Straight

You've proven that Megas are actually much the same as frigates, though, so I don't hold it against you. P

Abominare wrote:
When talking about wasted SP a person is saying that there are skills trained that do not further a specific focus. So as Tippia stated that her goal for the character was to fly ships, especially since she wanted to start this conversation by posting in response to a pvp claim and pointing how magnificent her sheet was. In this case every point in industry becomes a wasted skill point.
But that's the point you keep missing: they're not wasted. They serve a very specific purpose and they fulfil that purpose to a more than satisfactory level.

You also rather missed out the point I was making by posting my sheet to being with. It is about the notion of catching up in relation to SP. Combat is just one small (and not entirely relevant) area among many to catch up in.

Quote:
However, shes missing a bunch of glaring skills that should be at V. (and a few that aren't even trained to 1 to begin with)
Nah.

Quote:
So in the end we have a 149m sp character that still can't [fit] a single combat [ship] properly considering the amount of SP we had at our disposal.
I'm guessing you were going for this and that you had a mis-strike and a word missing. And no, what we have is a 149M SP character that can fit every ship she can fly properly and, more importantly, can pick the ship that will win the fight. My problem in a fight is not my ship or skills (or yours for that matter), but your support fleet and how well I can plan and out-gambit that.

Quote:
I've been trying to point out that its those gaps in her core specialisation skills that mean a player can indeed catch up to her character and in this case actually surpass it because shes refusing to train important skills that directly impact her ability to fly ships. Even if they were perfect a new character can one day match her in specific roles.
You understand that this was the point all along, yes? And that it is one that can be universally made. Well, except that it's not in the core skills, but in the specific specialisations that I dismissed as not being worth their cost compared to the cost of versatility…
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#34 - 2014-09-06 12:33:57 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
In breaking news and on a related PVP note, I may have accidentally just developed a viable Retribution fit.

Will update with PVP success stories as they roll in.

Won't update on failures though.

can i have a look?
I love that ship.


Hmm.....

I might send you an in-game mail cuz none of my friends are online right now and I need some second opinions on the concept. DWA opinions are especially welcome since, like me, you guys love your frigates. I'm still going to be trying it out as I have it whether I get told it's bad or not, but opinions now mean I have more to work with later if it turns out to be bad in practice and I need to revisit.

My first love will always be the Ishkur though, and I'm really only doing this because I finished training Amarr frigs V just yesterday.The Vengeance is too easy to figure out, but the Ret was actually a challenge. PG is terrible on it. I mean, PG is worse on a Wolf but autocannons don't use 10MW a piece Cry

cool, Big smile

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-09-06 12:34:27 UTC
Abominare wrote:


So in the end we have a 149m sp character that still can't a single combat **** properly considering the amount of SP we had at our disposal.



So you're saying, missing 1 or 2 % for that final bonus for whatever ship fit is crippling?

The way I see it, if you're in a fight where a few percent bonus is what's keeping you from victory, that was a terrible fight to commit to anyway.

It's looking to me like High amounts of SP are more of a sort of "buffer" for error (apart from being a barrier to entry for mods and ships obviously). At my SP levels my wins and losses are never down to SP. It's if I chose a good fight to commit to or not, or got caught by someone in a better fit for the situation. Hell my second solo kill on paper should have been a loss. I won though because my opponent neglected to pack Scorch ammo. His SP did absolutely nothing for him. The situation was in my favor.

That's why the quoted part above seems silly to me.

Grrr.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2014-09-06 12:35:11 UTC
Daktar Jaxs wrote:
for a 50-60m SP character your combat skills would be ok-ish. for a 149m SP charatcer they're abysmal. i would be ashamed to admit i'd trained such a catastrofuck

…and you can highlight why I should be, I suppose? Lol

Because if you think that it is a catastrophe, you have misunderstood some very fundamental things about how the EVE skill system works.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#37 - 2014-09-06 12:38:02 UTC
Tackle isn't the only role a newbie can play. Let them train gallente frig + some ewar skills and suddenly they can **** enemy logistics pretty badly with a maulus.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2014-09-06 12:45:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Straight

You've proven that Megas are actually much the same as frigates, though, so I don't hold it against you. P



Just realised how much I need a tackle mega...
Abominare
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#39 - 2014-09-06 12:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Abominare
Azda Ja wrote:
Abominare wrote:


So in the end we have a 149m sp character that still can't a single combat **** properly considering the amount of SP we had at our disposal.



So you're saying, missing 1 or 2 % for that final bonus for whatever ship fit is crippling?

The way I see it, if you're in a fight where a few percent bonus is what's keeping you from victory, that was a terrible fight to commit to anyway.

It's looking to me like High amounts of SP are more of a sort of "buffer" for error (apart from being a barrier to entry for mods and ships obviously). At my SP levels my wins and losses are never down to SP. It's if I chose a good fight to commit to or not, or got caught by someone in a better fit for the situation. Hell my second solo kill on paper should have been a loss. I won though because my opponent neglected to pack Scorch ammo. His SP did absolutely nothing for him. The situation was in my favor.

That's why the quoted part above seems silly to me.


Not necessarily a buffer, they're only a buffer when you are against some one with lower skills than you. At 149m you really shouldn't every be in a position where you could be playing from behind in the skill sense. However she can and does on basically every ship she flies.

When you're at 13m sp looking for targets and notice the other guy in local is 10 years old you tend to assume that if you pick a fight you're playing from behind (so yes his pure sp advantage works as a buffer he can **** up much more), and your decision relies on two pieces of information. Does my ship and fit have a distinct advantage over theirs? Or am I only going to win because he fucks up impressively. Like if you trolling about in a hawk and see another hawk and you weigh your options.

Having proper skills mean you don't worry about playing from behind in that aspect of the game, it boils back into just worry about fits and piloting. Like the classic rifter duel of old when you troll about minnie lowsec and run into about a thousand people all in basically the same fit and could just engage and get a snack and let the skills win for you. Things are a bit more diversified these days but the principal is the same, you have left nothing up to sp chance the match is simply about the actual fight and your piloting to handle it.

Being able to sit in ships is great, you don't get left behind in fleets, just know that when you're in the middle of a frig fight, all those millions in cruisers and battlecruiser aren't helping you no matter how much you tell the people in local that your navy omen would have hard countered their fleet. It doesn't matter because you in a frig.

Edit: I will wholeheartedly admit the final skill is always that fifth proficiency in advanced weapons (like large auto cannon specialization V), I tend to only pick up on ships and weapon types I love to death. That said I'm at a mere 63m sp and they're rapidly coming up as skills that I need to train next, but most people are generally willing to over look them for quite some time. I flew various minmatar frigs for years so yes I have arty and auto specs at V, I only flew drakes when some one twisted my arm, so **** hml spec V. On things that are universal like High Speed maneuvering you're basically ******** for not thinking that its worth getting to V, or all the gunnery supports to V if you're flying gunnery ships.
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-09-06 12:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Azda Ja
Abominare wrote:

At 149m you really shouldn't every be in a position where you could be playing from behind in the skill sense. However she can and does on basically every ship she flies.


That's the thing though, Tippia is behind by a truly trivial amount, an amount that is immediately irrelevant if the opponent either flies better, or has a different fit.

The only situation I can see where that few percent extra will be THE thing that saves someone is if you're flying the exact same ship and fit, activate everything, and both sit there until someone dies. That SP will save someone if you eliminate every other factor of the fight: human skill and error, fits, etc...

Otherwise, it's just a nice bonus and barrier to entry for certain equipment.

Abominare wrote:


Having proper skills mean you don't worry about playing from behind in that aspect of the game, it boils back into just worry about fits and piloting.



That's my point, you have to worry more about fits and piloting far more than SP in almost every situation it seems, having all Vs isn't the point where those two things start mattering. They matter from the get go. The SP is a bonus. Like gravy.


EDIT: Derp, forgot the other part of my post.

Grrr.