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Revisit Null Ore Anomalies

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Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-09-05 23:06:51 UTC
THis is the exact same thread idea, arguments, and Goons as
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=369828
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=371014

What game balance is broken here that is not a product of Player choices?
It seems that across the threads that goons are active in for Compression/ore changes the main issue is Goons not being able to import the same amount of minerals to build titans as previously.

Please state which mechanic is actually broken or recently broke that you are proposing to have fixed and why it is not an issue with player behavior. and what changed to provoke this proposed change.

Things that are not realistic reasons for changes
Im not building as many titans as i want to
Its too hard to build titans like i used to
We(as a group) were too effective in killing off hisec mining groups
The worst ores in the game are not present in the numbers that i want
We (as a group) are not effectively mining our controlled areas.

If i have missed any of the already presented arguments please feel free to add them.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2014-09-05 23:21:47 UTC
All of the reasoning to your questions are in the OP and on pages 1 and 2. Please scan through those to get the answers to your questions.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-09-05 23:33:17 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
All of the reasoning to your questions are in the OP and on pages 1 and 2. Please scan through those to get the answers to your questions.

Mr Omniblivion wrote:
I
  • The changes in compression means that it is harder for null producers to source the appropriate amounts of low/med tier minerals

  • Nullsec Ore Anomalies have entirely too much high end ore as opposed to the low end output. In order for local miners to fulfill the mineral needs of local producers, they would need to cycle belts, producing a surplus of high end minerals. That, or they simply cherry pick the high ends and leave everything else in the belt. Specifically, nullsec producers have issues sourcing Mex and Isogen in meaningful amounts.

    • Again -
    Please state which mechanic is actually broken or recently broke that you are proposing to have fixed and why it is not an issue with player behavior. and what changed to provoke this proposed change.

    Things that are not realistic reasons for changes

    Im not building as many titans as i want to
    Its too hard to build titans like i used to
    (First point)

    We(as a group) were too effective in killing off hisec mining groups
    The worst ores in the game are not present in the numbers that i want

    We (as a group) are not effectively mining our controlled areas.
    (Second Point)

    Do you have anything you want to add? You are not effectively mining you areas of control. You are not attempting to it seems.

    What mechanic is broken, where the issues you are presenting are not player behavior based?

    Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
    Mr Omniblivion
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #44 - 2014-09-05 23:47:26 UTC
    Kusum Fawn wrote:
    What mechanic is broken, where the issues you are presenting are not player behavior based?


    Here is a summary of the issues and arguments presented:

    Mineral Supply Issue

    • Null Sec ore anomalies have a very bad imbalance of minerals. Tons of high ends, a decent amount of low ends except mex/isogen
    • Anomalies currently respawn infinitely, but must be completely mined out to respawn (or wait the 4 day timer)
    • This leads to a gigantic surplus of high ends (see: zyd/mega prices) and a stagnation in other mineral prices (except mex)


    Importing Issues
  • Before Crius, null could use modules to compress low end ores to fill the huge mineral imbalance from null belts
  • After Crius, compression is the only way to move minerals in an efficient manner (ie: not using a JF of just minerals)
  • Compression in high sec can only be done via a POS module, which many miners do not use
  • Once refined, there is no way to get minerals back into a compressed format

    • Result of these issues
  • Prices have already adjusted. You can already buy ore and compress it and sell to buy orders for a good profit margin. The problem is the effort involved shipping freighter after freighter of raw ore to compress it.
  • Nullsec mining their local ore belts requires them to strip the entire belt to get the missing low ends they need, causing the high end mineral market to crash
  • Crius is designed to push industry out of one major location (Jita) and to develop localized markets. The problem is, this cannot happen, because we are still completely reliant on Jita or major trade hubs to source the missing minerals we need- counter the effect of scaling industry costs in systems.
  • Mining 0.0 asteroid belts is one of the absolute lowest incomes in the game, on top of a very high risk

    • Suggested Solutions
  • Temporary fix: make compression more accessible (from Querns' thread) so that miners can more easily compress their ore. Compressed ore will always be worth more, on average, than the mineral components.
  • Rebalance the null anomalies so that they don't infinitely respawn without a timer, and make different types of sites that appropriately represent the balance of minerals utilized in 99% of ships in Eve.
    • (Note: this would reduce the supply of ore in null, but rebalance it. That means higher mineral prices across the board, for everyone).
    Nevyn Auscent
    Broke Sauce
    #45 - 2014-09-06 00:04:22 UTC
    As expressed in EVERY SINGLE OTHER WHINE THREAD YOU ALREADY HAVE ON THIS MATTER (Seriously, and you say high sec whines). Mine your static belts.
    It's not hard, and solves your issue. You ALREADY HAVE THE MEANS TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.

    But it's too hard to actually adapt for a Goon we can see, instead you need CCP to hold your hand and change everything for you to win. Seriously, you know if CCP do this, it's going to be outright proof Goons run CCP now, because you already have all the ore you need in static belts. I stuck my head out to personally verify that ore exists even.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #46 - 2014-09-06 00:23:45 UTC
    Nevyn Auscent wrote:
    As expressed in EVERY SINGLE OTHER WHINE THREAD YOU ALREADY HAVE ON THIS MATTER (Seriously, and you say high sec whines). Mine your static belts.
    It's not hard, and solves your issue. You ALREADY HAVE THE MEANS TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.

    But it's too hard to actually adapt for a Goon we can see, instead you need CCP to hold your hand and change everything for you to win. Seriously, you know if CCP do this, it's going to be outright proof Goons run CCP now, because you already have all the ore you need in static belts. I stuck my head out to personally verify that ore exists even.

    We've been over this in the other thread -- static belts have barely enough minerals to build anything. The needs of nullsec war far outstrip the supply that is locally available.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Bella Sprout
    Just Post
    Goonswarm Federation
    #47 - 2014-09-06 00:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bella Sprout
    Nevyn Auscent wrote:
    As expressed in EVERY SINGLE OTHER WHINE THREAD YOU ALREADY HAVE ON THIS MATTER (Seriously, and you say high sec whines). Mine your static belts.
    It's not hard, and solves your issue. You ALREADY HAVE THE MEANS TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.

    But it's too hard to actually adapt for a Goon we can see, instead you need CCP to hold your hand and change everything for you to win. Seriously, you know if CCP do this, it's going to be outright proof Goons run CCP now, because you already have all the ore you need in static belts. I stuck my head out to personally verify that ore exists even.


    Static belts are not, and should not be the answer for everything in nullsec, otherwise what is the point in even having an industry index? Not to mention that there's still a fair amount of high end minerals in the static belts. If you're going to try to make static belts "a thing," you have to make them better as you utilize them--that is people who utilize their space are rewarded to some degree rather than people who just have a lot of space. Having the belts be slightly denser would also be a nice change in that regard

    On that note, the regular belts could be part of an eventual solution, but not really as they are
    Nevyn Auscent
    Broke Sauce
    #48 - 2014-09-06 00:37:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
    Querns wrote:

    We've been over this in the other thread -- static belts have barely enough minerals to build anything. The needs of nullsec war far outstrip the supply that is locally available.

    The static belts have more than high sec (50% more per belt). Including some of the really nice low sec ores that have in demand minerals in good quantities.
    Across Null there are about 4 times as many belts.
    This means in a rough count there are six times as many minerals available in Null than in High.

    Simply because you have set up a Meta where you don't utilise them doesn't make them suddenly not exist. Work out how to utilise them, change your renter agreements if they don't want to mine, etc etc.
    But the supply is there. You just are too lazy to do the grunt work yourself, and have spent so many years luring miners out to null then ganking them that now people are finally wary.
    Mr Omniblivion
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #49 - 2014-09-06 01:21:35 UTC
    Nevyn Auscent wrote:

    Across Null there are about 4 times as many belts.


    Thank you for your suggestion. However, mining belts in nullsec does not solve the problem of the horrible imbalance in the already implemented ore anomalies. Furthermore, null ore belts are not a consistent way of getting Mex as opposed to every other mineral available in Ore Anomalies. In order to match the mineral distribution from one ore anomaly, we would have to completely strip the belts of multiple systems in null, costing significantly more in man hours than it is worth. We would be better off paying a lot extra to ship pure minerals from Jita to null, which is what is currently happening.
    Nevyn Auscent
    Broke Sauce
    #50 - 2014-09-06 01:25:53 UTC
    Mr Omniblivion wrote:

    Thank you for your suggestion. However, mining belts in nullsec does not solve the problem of the horrible imbalance in the already implemented ore anomalies. Furthermore, null ore belts are not a consistent way of getting Mex as opposed to every other mineral available in Ore Anomalies. In order to match the mineral distribution from one ore anomaly, we would have to completely strip the belts of multiple systems in null, costing significantly more in man hours than it is worth. We would be better off paying a lot extra to ship pure minerals from Jita to null, which is what is currently happening.

    Except if the issue is that the ore anomalies aren't worth as much as the 'pure minerals'. You actually aren't. You are better off mining the actually valuable ores in the static belts.
    There is no issue at all with the mineral supply in Null, you have vastly more minerals of every sort than high sec can possibly produce, both per average system, and overall since null has significantly more systems.

    Not to mention it saves you on some of that handling. And since you already have Moon Goo Pos's running it's easy for you to then simply online a compression array while you are in each system then offline the array afterwards.

    This is nothing to do with the ore anoms being out of balance, it's to do with you not properly utilising all aspects of your space and rather than adapting you are crying for CCP to make it easier for you.
    Mr Omniblivion
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #51 - 2014-09-06 01:28:12 UTC
    Let's agree to disagree.Big smile
    Nevyn Auscent
    Broke Sauce
    #52 - 2014-09-06 01:33:38 UTC
    Mr Omniblivion wrote:
    Let's agree to disagree.Big smile

    Unless of course you are arguing that you could make the isk to buy the minerals faster by ratting than it takes to mine them yourself, at which point you still aren't mining the ore anoms....
    Your 'logic' is simply badly flawed. It's not an agree to disagree, your argument is based on false premises.
    ISD Ezwal
    ISD Community Communications Liaisons
    ISD Alliance
    #53 - 2014-09-06 01:35:53 UTC
    As there is already a thread on the same topic, this one gets a lock.

    Thread locked.

    The Rules:
    16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

    As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.

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