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Revisit Null Ore Anomalies

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Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#21 - 2014-09-02 20:28:23 UTC
The individual ore anomaly is another way to get the same result.

Question: why would we need to add timers to artificially incentivize mining different types of ore?

Let the miners mine whatever they want. If they overproduce something, there will be a glut and the value will drop. Then they will choose to mine something else on their own. Or, if they are stupid, their isk/hr will be bad. Both of those results are good in my opinion.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-09-02 20:36:30 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
Question: why would we need to add timers to artificially incentivize mining different types of ore?


The purpose of the timer would be to prevent one system from supplying an entire market. The idea would be that you'd need to scale your mining systems appropriately in order to supply various levels of production. If your alliance wants to locally source minerals for supers, you'll need several mining systems set up rather than piling everyone into one system.

As usual, spreading out activity over multiple systems leads to more conflicts.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#23 - 2014-09-02 20:57:43 UTC
Ah, that makes sense.

+1
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#24 - 2014-09-03 02:26:55 UTC
Mineral transmutation maybe? i.e. Reactions to reduce minerals. Players gain more control over what they need. Sort of like alchemy.

I really didn't like the changes to nulsec ore mineral content. Seemed like a kludge to me. I think it should be reversed, and some other system put into place, like completely new asteroid types if necessary.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-09-03 03:49:25 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
Yes, the cause of the problem is the mechanic which forces null-sec miners to mine out an entire anomaly to get the next one to spawn.

However, changing the mineral composition of ores is not the best solution. Will CCP need to repeat the process every patch as each mineral, one by one, becomes the one with the shortage?

High sec miners are able to cherry-pick whichever ore is worth the most. They are also able to move from region to region if they don't think they are getting enough isk per hour. Null sec miners should also be given the option to cherry pick whichever ore is worth the most or contains the minerals they need.

Possible easy solution: Double the size of anomalies. The next anomaly spawns when the first is 50% mined, rather than fully mined out. The old anomaly then despawns (perhaps after a short time delay.) When someone has a glut of megacyte, they would then have the option to let the arkanor asteroids despawn while they mined something they actually needed.

You didn't actually read anything I posted. Good job.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#26 - 2014-09-03 06:19:10 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Producers halting their production because of an inability to source minerals reduces overall demand for all minerals, dropping prices.


This is so blatantly non-sequitor either you're being disingenuous or worse. Lack of supply drives up prices, without exception.

I used to HAULER in t1 compression mods, and you can JUMP IN ores. And you have the GALL to cry about it? I built an outpost using HAULERs to harvest rat mineral spawns, with a group of about 10 others. And then about 30 of us HAULERed them to the outpost all bloody night long.

Eve isn't a silver platter, and you don't get a silver spoon no matter how much you Cry Us. Suck it up, and adapt or (preferably) die.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-09-03 06:36:48 UTC
SJ Astralana wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Producers halting their production because of an inability to source minerals reduces overall demand for all minerals, dropping prices.


This is so blatantly non-sequitor either you're being disingenuous or worse. Lack of supply drives up prices, without exception.

I used to HAULER in t1 compression mods, and you can JUMP IN ores. And you have the GALL to cry about it? I built an outpost using HAULERs to harvest rat mineral spawns, with a group of about 10 others. And then about 30 of us HAULERed them to the outpost all bloody night long.

Eve isn't a silver platter, and you don't get a silver spoon no matter how much you Cry Us. Suck it up, and adapt or (preferably) die.


What's stopping you from jumping in minerals or ores? You can light cynos in lowsec too, y'know.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#28 - 2014-09-03 08:40:36 UTC
Highsec isn't mined out.
There are more then enough belts to satisfy your demand - if you are willing to pay the price.

Maybe if you could stop importing organized mining fleets to nullsec the supply of highsec ore won't drop any further?
As soon as ABC is worth less then Veldspar you'll see your mining renters heading back to highsec simply because they can make more ISK/h without paying a monthly rent.
That will solve your problem without CCP doing anything.

I feel like you want to achieve: 1. high renting income, 2. high empire ore supply, 3. low empire ore prices

You have to make a decision...
Send your renters home and have 2. and 3.
Keep your renting income, rise your buyorder prices and get 2.
Equip your Catalysts with mining turrets and start a highsec ore interdiction where you gank highsec belts until they are depleted and get 1., 2. and 3.

And - just in case - a tinfoil-solution:
Blame Gevlon Goblin for buying all highsec ore to destroy CFC industry.

Tinfoil and mining Catalysts solutions would be by far my favourite!
Islena Inewen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-09-03 10:54:48 UTC
Acutally what eve needs is a more complete overhaul of the basic mining concept.
It it were up to me (and thankfully for all concerned it's not) I'd replace the current system with a more dynamic one.

Basically as it stands there are giant rocks in space that contain a single ore type. These rocks are placed together for form belts or in scannable sites.

I would replace the individual ore rocks with a single "Asteroid" type. Each asteroid type contains a percentage of each of the ore types. The asteroids in high sec contain a much lower potion of the good ores, and the asteroids in null sec contain a better ratio of the good stuff. Low sec can go fu... i mean low sec contains a more balanced level.

Now this would be complicated further to make it more fun! The T2 mining crystals would allow you to pull out a greater portion of the ore you're after at the expense of wasting the ores you're not.
The server would track the total of each ore mined in a region and when downtime rolls around and the ores are respawned then the ore percentage balance that the newly spawned rocks will now contain will be adjusted by what was mined over the course of the last few days/weeks.

So for example, in a high sec region right after this goes live it's fairly obvious that everyone will be after the better ores so they will fit the T2 ark crystals and mine away. after a few days of this the percentage of ark in the high sec belts will be low enough that the return on mining this will be less than switching out to another crystal. Rinse and repeat.

This should create a steady source of the low ends in null sec which can be balanced so that importing from high sec is still required but a concerted effort to get them locally would be possible.

The base percentages could be regularly balanced to ensure the market is operating the way CCP want, i.e. export of high ends from null and import of lows from highsec.

Btw, the asteroid scanner would tell you the total m3 of the roid and the percentages of the various ores it contains.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#30 - 2014-09-03 13:11:00 UTC
Like I said in a different thread:

handige harrie wrote:

As for the High End market collapse, I think CCP should've changed Ore anomalies the same way as they did Pirate anomalies. Remove most high end ores in -0.1 and -0.2 and have more, the lower the security rating gets.


The Ore sites in higher -0.1 till about -0.5 should mostly contain low sec ores and Spod (untill you hit industrial levels 4 and 5 for the -0.4 and -0.5 band). This makes high end ores rare again, and removes the ability to non stop A/B/C mine in -0.1 space, while retaining the isk/hour.

This would offcourse need a rebalance of all ore anomalies.

Baddest poster ever
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-09-03 20:18:59 UTC
Islena Inewen wrote:
Acutally what eve needs is a more complete overhaul of the basic mining concept.


This would be a whole new topic- a mining minigame would be less boring Smile
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#32 - 2014-09-04 09:15:37 UTC
mynnna wrote:
So, to re-propose what I've suggested before, just take the empire and lowsec ores, everything between Veldspar and Jaspet, out of nullsec sites.

When I had initially made this suggestion it was with an eye to making nullsec mining a bit more attractive, and so I'd also said "and then adjust the mineral content of the nullsec ores so that the overall mineral content of a site remains approximately the same." As you'd remove 10-15% of the volume of the site, yet retained the total value of the site, the isk/hr from mining would rise accordingly. At least at the time it boosted mining income up to be roughly on par with low effort ratting, which I think put it in a reasonable place. I'm not sure if that's still true with current mineral prices, though. I'm not sure sure if that's true with current mineral prices though...but there's more. I've somehow rambled on to four thousand characters though, so "more" comes next post.
Plugging current 20140904 Jita buy order mineral prices in grismar shows all the nul ores are undervalued compared to 20110731, likely due to overmining of nul ores.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-09-04 18:27:00 UTC
So I don't have to type this twice:

Mr Omniblivion wrote:

Let me recap the issues

Ore Supply in Null

  • Nullsec is already mining a large amount of ore via Industrial Upgrade Ore Anomalies
  • The existing ore anomalies are very top heavy- meaning that they have a huge quantity of high end minerals and not a huge quantity of low end minerals (see: zyd/mega prices)
  • There isn't "infinite" ore of a specific type, because each belt must be 100% mined out before it respawns
  • Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
  • There is a severe shortage of mexallon (and some isogen) in nullsec belts; meanwhile, there is a crushingly imbalanced surplus of high end minerals


Filling the Gap

  • In order to fill the Mex gap, we currently need to import from high sec
  • The nerf to modules means that a significant source of minerals was nerfed across the board
  • A considerable portion of high sec miners don't compress their ore, and instead refine it directly in high sec stations. This reduces the pre-Crius supply even further because of the reduced efficiency of High Sec stations
  • As soon as ore is refined into minerals, there is no way to get it into a compressed - "easy to move" - format, without taking a gigantic loss.
  • A great number of miners in high sec don't read forums, don't do math (as shown by vocal posters in other threads in S&I), and therefore don't compress their ore for additional profit.
  • Additionally, there is a barrier to entry for compression in high sec, which some miners assume is too high to enter the compressed market space


Therefore- the compressed market was severely hit post Crius. The mineral supply issue has always been a problem, but was being staunched by being able to import minerals via modules. The current state of supply in nullsec is imbalanced to the point that is going to continue to crash the high end markets- production has considerably slowed in null, reducing the relative demand for all minerals (but especially high ends).

ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#34 - 2014-09-04 19:27:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
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Rialen
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-09-05 03:25:15 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Islena Inewen wrote:
Acutally what eve needs is a more complete overhaul of the basic mining concept.


This would be a whole new topic- a mining minigame would be less boring Smile



There as been a lot of suggestion for a Minigame of some kind for mining. If you are in highsec, playing a mini-game while you are mining is acceptable, and relatively safe.

If you are in lowsec, nullsec, or w-space, and there is a mini-game, you are forcing people to pay less attention on local or d-scan which is a bad thing. Please kindly stop suggesting a mini-game as miners in any sec status apart from high will need to focus on local, d-scan for safety and cannot maximise mining via playing a mini-game.
Islena Inewen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-09-05 08:00:14 UTC
Rialen wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Islena Inewen wrote:
Acutally what eve needs is a more complete overhaul of the basic mining concept.


This would be a whole new topic- a mining minigame would be less boring Smile



There as been a lot of suggestion for a Minigame of some kind for mining. If you are in highsec, playing a mini-game while you are mining is acceptable, and relatively safe.

If you are in lowsec, nullsec, or w-space, and there is a mini-game, you are forcing people to pay less attention on local or d-scan which is a bad thing. Please kindly stop suggesting a mini-game as miners in any sec status apart from high will need to focus on local, d-scan for safety and cannot maximise mining via playing a mini-game.


It wouldn't really be a mini-game. You need to identify which asteroid you want to mine is all. Since roids in null are much bigger than the ones in hisec you'd just target it and fire up the lasers, same as now.
All you need to do to work out which roid to mine is to use the scanner, pick the largest m3 one with the highest concentration of the ore you're after and get to work.
You are quite right to point out that mining in 0.0 requires a bit more attention than a 1.0 system.

However having said that I think it would be better if static belts were removed and replaced with belts that need to be scanned down, but that's a topic for another day ;)
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-09-05 16:26:33 UTC
Rialen wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Islena Inewen wrote:
Acutally what eve needs is a more complete overhaul of the basic mining concept.


This would be a whole new topic- a mining minigame would be less boring Smile


If you are in lowsec, nullsec, or w-space, and there is a mini-game, you are forcing people to pay less attention on local or d-scan which is a bad thing. Please kindly stop suggesting a mini-game as miners in any sec status apart from high will need to focus on local, d-scan for safety and cannot maximise mining via playing a mini-game.


What do you think hacking/relic sites are? Big smile

I put up a proposal some time ago that I can't find now. Basically, there would be two options to mining. If people wanted to AFK mine and not participate in the minigame (or whatever you want to call the alternative activity), then their mining output would be reduced by 50%. So people could still AFK mine, but it would be less profitable. This change would make ore prices go up, making mining more valuable as a profession (but would hurt people with 10+ accounts, like myself).

The second option is to actually participate in the mining minigame. It doesn't need to be a "constant" minigame where you're always playing it to generate 100 or 110% of output, but you need a "win" every cycle or so in order to keep up the bonus. This would mean that people actively playing and paying attention to their game would make significantly more than the people AFK mining.

But that's a whole different issue than revisiting the current ore anomalies :)
Luna Arindale
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#38 - 2014-09-05 16:45:07 UTC
But don't lower security status system already generate ore anoms with only the +5% and the +10% variants?

What about mercoxit spawns? Messing with those could be dangerous.

How would this benefit any new entity to nullsec or any new player?

Would this drive power into deeper nullsec? (Blue donut effect?)
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#39 - 2014-09-05 16:52:54 UTC
So you have a shortage of Omber... how about you reflect that in market and start paying for it better... like stop it being the worst ISK/hour ore, even Veldspar is above it.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-09-05 17:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Luna Arindale wrote:
But don't lower security status system already generate ore anoms with only the +5% and the +10% variants?

What about mercoxit spawns? Messing with those could be dangerous.

How would this benefit any new entity to nullsec or any new player?

Would this drive power into deeper nullsec? (Blue donut effect?)


Yes, lower truesec systems get the 5% and 10% variants. The problem isn't that there is not ore, the problem is that the composition of those belts has a TON of high ends as compared to low ends- hence the recent crash of the high end minerals market.

I would suggest that they remove mercoxit spawns from the anoms, because that would make cherry picking mercoxit a viable profession. Mercoxit is in many of the anom belts, which is another thing that must be mined every time the belt cycles.

This would benefit every entity in nullsec, including new entities and even renters. The current composition requires that entities in null import key low end minerals in order to do any significant production (aka any capital ships). New organizations and renters probably won't have the logistics in place to properly import minerals (especially with the current state of compression). They probably will have a solid group of miners, as many new null organizations do. Therefore, this change would allow these new entities to be "self sufficient" in t1 minerals upon moving and living in nullsec.

This wouldn't have an effect on power at all. In fact, this will be a conflict driver, as you'd have more people mining in nullsec and more things being blown up. There isn't an incentive to "stay blue" for mining ops.

Hengle Teron wrote:
So you have a shortage of Omber... how about you reflect that in market and start paying for it better... like stop it being the worst ISK/hour ore, even Veldspar is above it.


Actually, right now, Arkonor is the worst income/hour in the game. You should check out the prices of compressed ore in Jita- there are BUY orders already up across the board at 15-30% higher than mineral prices (if not more).

Edit: I double checked and the rise in mex price pushed Arkonor slightly over Omber as of today.
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