Player Features and Ideas Discussion

lol...

FYI: Sentry drones are also Battleship class weapons.

Can you please explain how your example of a lol-fit, lol-flown drake dying to a gate camp is even remotely relevant to the thread?

The missile with already good application would not benefit as much from such module just like extra tracking is only useful to a certain point.

Are heavy missiles really out of balance though?

Caracal: 5% R.o.F Bonus, 2 BCU, HM's do 253 dps out to 100 kms.
Stabber: 5% R.o.F Bonus, 2 Gyros, 720's do 253 dps out to 20 + 37 kms.

Cerberus: 5% Damage, 5% R.o.F. Bonus, 3 BCU's, Hams do 426 dps out to 140 km's.
Muninn: 5% Damage, 5% R.o.F Bonus, 3 Gyros, 720's do 444 dps out to 27 + 31 km's.

Drake: 10% Damage, 3x BCU. HM's do 464 dps out to 62 km's. (CN Scourge HM)
Drake: 10% Damage, 3x BCU. HM's do 531 dps out to 47 km's. (Scourge Fury HM)
Hurricane: 5% Damage, 5% R.o.F 720's do 532 dps out to 18+31 kms.

I realize the Stabber and Muninn have 1 less weapon mount than the Caracal and Cerb, otherwise they'd deliver signficantly higher dps than their HM counterparts just like the Cane out damages the Drake in damage output. However, even the drake, without a range bonus, applies its consistent damage to a much farther range. Furthermore, when any of the Arty fit ships swap to long range ammo, their dps dramatically falls off. Likewise, when the Drake swaps to high damage ammo similar to RF EMP, it's dps matches that of the Cane. From this standpoint, the damage profiles of HM's are very much balanced with other long range damage platforms.

I'll admit there is a big discrepancy in damage application. By flying right, a cane can optimize their range and tracking to apply most of their dps even to frigates. Missile pilots do not enjoy similarly exploitable conditions. But that exploit goes both ways. I've solo killed Hurricanes, Ruptures, Stabbers, Thorax's, and many other turret ships in frigates hulls like the taranis by simply killing their drones and avoiding their turret dps with a close orbit. You can't do that to a drake or caracal, and have to be able to tank the damage they constantly deliver.

It is precisely this last scenario that we need to be careful of. While improving damage application creates a good fitting option, there is the danger of over-buffing this damage application to targets that should be difficult to kill. Optimizing your HM or HAMs to take down fellow cruisers is a great thing. If these modules result in easy-optimization so they blap frigates, too, and we have a problematic state from a balance perspective.

I say instead of speed increase flight time...

flight time is a trade off. yes it increases max distance but it also reinforces the negative of missiles of not having insta damage.

The way it would work is the mod decreases target acquisition time and thus allowing more time for the missile to fly to its target

If we're quoting raw DPS numbers, I've got a Torp Raven that is probably "OP" with *gasp* over 1k missile DPS. Now, as we all know, it's only ok to get high DPS numbers if you're using turrets, otherwise it's not fair because you're blapping frigs with Torps.
Sarcasm aside, look at the application stats for that same Drake and compare them to stats from comparable ships/fits against reasonable targets. I would say start with only 3 or 4 damage mods in the lows, BCS for the Drake and then Gyro's/Mag stabs/Heat sinks for the other ships, and then try and improve your damage. With the Drake, last I checked, the best you can do is a T1/T2 Rigor combo with a Flare. That's it, that's all you can do. Any other weapon system in the game can fit passive TE's in the lows along with the damage mods, or in place of them, and then take advantage of scripted TC's in the mids. That doesn't even bring ReTC's into the picture at all. Now, imagine you were in a 'Cane and your options were limited to rigs and passive damage mods.
The point of this post is that missile fits are not in line with any other weapon type, even drones now have tracking links to improve their application while missiles are still stuck with sacrificing tank rigs for Rigors and fitting 3/4 BCS in the lows. And yes, I deliberately left out TP's and webs because those affect all weapons and I was attempting to highlight the disparity in weapon specific modules.
Before anyone decides to completely ignore my point and hide behind the wall of "Light missiles OP", let's look BS size, short-range weapons. Unless you're shooting a small moon, there's not much point in fitting Torps to a BS for PvP whereas AC's/Blasters/Pulse are all able to achieve damage application against smaller-than-moon size targets with an ammo/script swap, even without refitting TE's or getting logi links. I fully understand that missiles are a different weapon system, and they have different strengths, but they have been pigeon holed into having those "strengths" because there are 5 total things you can do to improve your application: Rigor/Flare rigs, fit Javelin/Navy and then the universal Webs/TPs.

Just a thought.....

Edit: If big weapons are for shooting big things, then I think the Mega hulls in particular are probably a little out of line (2k DPS Blaster Vindi anyone?) - I realilze that the DPS of a Vindi doesn't directly mean that it's out of line, but those same blaster Vindi's can do a splendid job of sweeping the field of most things in their range and they don't stop at "big things".

As for increasing flight time over flight speed, what is the appeal in increasing the delay in damage even further? Unless you want Cerbs and Caracals to get seriously nerfed to compensate.

1.) Yeah most of the time nobody uses links because they don't do much to ships anyway..

2.) I did compare heavy missiles to long range turrets many times in the past and stated that you can compare heavy missiles with artillery guns with roughly 60% - let's call it 'beta-damage' - of artillery alpha of the same size that may hit the target at the end of the cycle (of the launchers)

3.) I didn't say that.
Fact is that the Raven (my favorite battleship hull) can do zero to small ships at any position, while turret boats can. Another tiny fact is that my cruise missile launchers with 3x tech2 ballistic controls have a rate of fire of 6.4 seconds. That is seven (7) server ticks if you wish.
The Raven wouldn't be 'immune' to small craft but could certainly have a word with them.
Unless it's like 40 Taranisses then is doesn't really matter how much my cruise launchers want to talk to them, they will just murder my boat ( ). No matter how much drones I'll send out.


scorchlikeshiswhiskey get's it.

I am not talking about increasing damage of missiles, I am telling you the roof will not drop on our heads when they ditch the two attributes that got us into that mess we have in the first place.

It's better from ~5 to (at least) 50km - with but an ammo swap. That is about the useful limit of (average) cruiser sized engagements. Also keep in mind that is a worst case transversal for the rails and a juicy high sig missile target.

I agree about the 'missile' problems/dilemma of range vs damage though - indeed I've posted about the problems before - anything which balances HML at less than extreme ranges instantly breaks them at extreme ranges. My suggestion was different launcher 'calibers' which modified the ammo properties - exp profile/flight ranges etc. This keeps ammo as is and allows fitting choices (akin to the different gun 'sizes' (dual 150/200/250mm rails) in their size class (small/medium/large)


Edit: found my link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4858982

I think it would solve a lot of problems - but that's obvious else I'd not have suggested it