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Power Projection - Spread out Regions

Author
Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-09-02 14:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Spaceman Jack
Instead of directly nerfing the ships - spread out Regions, so that "Region A" is out of cyno jump range of "Region B." Making each region it's own island.

Want to invade a region? You cannot just spam it with caps. You need to establish a presence with a smaller force and entrench yourself to bring the big guns over, giving regions and sov. mechanics the some badly strategies of Attrition and Defender's Advantage.


EDITED: For Clarity
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2014-09-02 14:50:51 UTC
Make more cyno alts. Log them off in space until needed. Nothing changes.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#3 - 2014-09-02 14:55:57 UTC
Say they completely change the map around to put massive rifts N+1 lightyears wide between regions...

And i invade say wicked creek (last place i did any major nullseccing god the fall of Sc0rched Earth was fun) from a neighbouring region with a fleet of "smaller stuff", what do i do then? ship in capital ships in pieces? make an EVEN LARGER number of archons? what?

What i am saying is that i dont understand the "entrench yourself to bring the big guns over"...

Okay that said, it wouldn't change much even if they did, the big blocks can still afford to just suicide their carrier and dread fleets if they want to, now they'll just need one in every region... And (if we can trust the mittani on his own website) one of the main reasons nullsec is so static is that neither side NEEDS any more terrain they both have about as much space as they can reasonably expect to hold/iuse/etc.

Granted i live in a wormhole so i dont claim to be an expert but i fail to see how building a gigantic stockpile of carriers in deklein is very different from building a few smaller stockpiles in deklein and wicked creek, and outer ring and other regions...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4 - 2014-09-02 15:38:42 UTC
would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2014-09-02 17:00:37 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy


If the jump range of ships stays the same but the universe gets expanded by 20%, you will need a lot more cynos and some areas of space are then only reachable through choke points. The south in particular would have some serious problems after such a change, as Stain is already only accessible via 2 suitable Low sec system. The west is a lot easier to reach in that regard, not to mention the absolutely well connected North. The East also has some issues here and there. In general, an expanded universe would mean that you need to have blues or be part of a bigger entity to reach deeper into 00 sec if you want to be there and move things around. If you want to live there and be self-sufficient there, it's not such a big problem as you can use WH to bring in the few bits and pieces which you can't get in your own space. True space life.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-09-02 18:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Spaceman Jack
Harvey James wrote:
would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy



Not understanding how a cyno alt would help a ship that cannot get to it

I am not saying that space should get bigger as a whole. I am saying that "Region A" should be out of cyno jump range of "Region B." Make each region it's own island.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#7 - 2014-09-02 19:05:54 UTC
Hmmm. interesting. I actually like this concept better than some of the short-sighted nerfs we have been seeing lately (as long as it is thought out and executed well).


With this, there would have to be even more options to establish robust economies in sov space as it would make it harder to jump in supplies, but that is not a bad thing and it would be interesting from a strategic standpoint with the sov mechanics.

No longer could you just blitz 100 cap ships across regions without warning. You would either have to kick the door down in a beach-head assault to establishing a CSA/warmachine under fire, or think longer term and build one without detection right in thier back yard.

Both scenarios allow for more classic elements that should be involved in a sov mechanic, especially a defenders advantage and as OP said, attrition. This could actually solve a lot of small block stagnation issues.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-09-02 20:23:45 UTC
Spaceman Jack wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy



Not understanding how a cyno alt would help a ship that cannot get to it

I am not saying that space should get bigger as a whole. I am saying that "Region A" should be out of cyno jump range of "Region B." Make each region it's own island.



Then it becomes completely impossible to take out a group that has the time to build itself even a middling capital fleet.

How are you going to take out a hundred spider tanking archons when you cannot use anything bigger than a battleship?

How are you going to avoid mass burnout if you try to invade, say, Providence in subcaps?

How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2014-09-02 21:10:16 UTC

There are some issues with spreading regions out too much. I always liked the idea that it was easier to fly towards empire than to circumnavigate the outer nullsec regions. This is true in some cases, and I think it creates some useful tactical situations in the "layout" of the universe. However, this change won't solve the major issues with Sov that currently exist.

We need to change the Sov system as a priority. Changing the ly distances between systems would not be a healthy change unless/until we put it in context of a revamped sov system.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2014-09-02 21:20:36 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions?


I highlighted it for you.


UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2014-09-02 21:26:53 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions?


I highlighted it for you.





Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2014-09-02 21:28:27 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions?


I highlighted it for you.



Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist?


Yes?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2014-09-02 21:41:23 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions?


I highlighted it for you.



Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist?


Yes?



While you may enjoy the idea of flying nothing but T1 ships with awful fits, some of us would really rather not.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2014-09-02 22:02:21 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions?


I highlighted it for you.



Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist?


Yes?


While you may enjoy the idea of flying nothing but T1 ships with awful fits, some of us would really rather not.


Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2014-09-03 00:43:57 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.



Which would be obtained in any significant number from...?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2014-09-03 06:32:06 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:


Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.


Which would be obtained in any significant number from...?


Your own moon minerals in the region or surrounding areas from friends + imports of all those materials that you cannot obtain in your from trade hubs either via WHs or coordinated JF runs.

Small as as well as big alliances who want to live in Cache, for instance, would have to grow and diversify a little bit. They would have to attract miners who mine the normal minerals for the alliance's production needs, while the alliance's PVP provide protection from roaming gangs or other intruders for these PVP attractions. A change in mindset and attitude towards the game would have to take place, in a way that "living" in your Sov is not just farming rats in anomalies and importing all the things from Jita; rather it would mean that you use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands.

Naturally, there also would have to be some changes to the Sovereignty system, stations in Sov 00, POS in general, ratting aka making money and a couple more things.

I might be talking about a completely different, potentially better game here.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-09-03 13:52:37 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:


Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.


Which would be obtained in any significant number from...?


Your own moon minerals in the region or surrounding areas from friends + imports of all those materials that you cannot obtain in your from trade hubs either via WHs or coordinated JF runs.

Small as as well as big alliances who want to live in Cache, for instance, would have to grow and diversify a little bit. They would have to attract miners who mine the normal minerals for the alliance's production needs, while the alliance's PVP provide protection from roaming gangs or other intruders for these PVP attractions. A change in mindset and attitude towards the game would have to take place, in a way that "living" in your Sov is not just farming rats in anomalies and importing all the things from Jita; rather it would mean that you use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands.

Naturally, there also would have to be some changes to the Sovereignty system, stations in Sov 00, POS in general, ratting aka making money and a couple more things.

I might be talking about a completely different, potentially better game here.



this guy gets it - Yes, this would need some other changes as I stated previously, mostly to continue the industrial changes we are seeing now to make Null more self-sustainable and some other sov mechanics. this is not a magic bullet, but a different way of looking at the sov mechanic issue as a whole.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2014-09-03 21:05:04 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:


Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.


Which would be obtained in any significant number from...?


Your own moon minerals in the region or surrounding areas from friends + imports of all those materials that you cannot obtain in your from trade hubs either via WHs or coordinated JF runs.

Small as as well as big alliances who want to live in Cache, for instance, would have to grow and diversify a little bit. They would have to attract miners who mine the normal minerals for the alliance's production needs, while the alliance's PVP provide protection from roaming gangs or other intruders for these PVP attractions. A change in mindset and attitude towards the game would have to take place, in a way that "living" in your Sov is not just farming rats in anomalies and importing all the things from Jita; rather it would mean that you use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands.

Naturally, there also would have to be some changes to the Sovereignty system, stations in Sov 00, POS in general, ratting aka making money and a couple more things.

I might be talking about a completely different, potentially better game here.



What you are describing there is a complete rework of the entire game from the ground up. A little bit more than a massive increase in the distances between regions.

You also fail to understand that you don't get all the moon materials in every region. Some regions would actually have T2 equipment, others simply would not. At all.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#19 - 2014-09-03 21:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
If a complete rewrite of the game is necessary to make it interesting again and induce change ... I can live with that. Blink

I mentioned WH usage and JF to get your needed materials and equipment, which are not producible in your location, to your homes.
If that doesn't pan out as expected in test phases (prohibitively expensive or just too cumbersome to realize, for instance.) I would also be inclined to give regions in this "new game" a more equal spread of moon minerals or materials or methodes (ring mining, anyone?) that are then required for T2 production.
Correct me if I am wrong, but moon minerals haven't really been a great conflict driver for years; the last conflict over moon minerals was the time when CFC took over the north for their Technetium Cartel. In a universe with a wider spread and thus harder to maintain big empire, it would be even less likely that moons in Deklein drive conflict with people in Cache.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Andy Koraka
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2014-09-03 21:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Koraka
Rivr Luzade wrote:
use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands.


Already done:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Brothers_of_Tangra
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Northern_Associates.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Greater_Western_Co-Prosperity_Sphere

Whether they pay in ISK, Fuel, Minerals, or Archon hulls is insignificant. If you region lock Capitals it becomes trivially easy for N3, PL, and the CFC to leverage that massive income to permanently entrench hundreds of Capitals into their border regions.

Worst case scenario we have 3 or 4 weeks notice to seed the most vulnerable regions with enough capitals no invading subcapital force could out them, in the following months the massive collective output from the renters would quickly shore up gaps in the defense.

If you want to promote stagnation and discourage conflict that's the way to do it.
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