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Double Wrapped Contract Discussion. (Serious Discussion.)

Author
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-08-29 23:14:38 UTC
BFE wrote:
Don't lose faith, there are those among us with logic still.... Anyone with a question on these ships need only look up the Viator (Gallente), Crane (Caldari), Prorator (Amarr), and/or the Prowler (Minmatar).
I'll copy straight from the client on the other screen:

"Role Bonus:
* Can Fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device and Covert Cynosural Field Generator
* Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
* Immune to all Cargo Scanners"

^ Point made ^

And as anyone who has flown a blockade runner in high-sec can attest to, that property is mis-labeled: it's a ship penalty, not a role bonus.

Besides, this is something that was added to BRs after 2010. I wouldn't take as proof one way or another of the appropriatness of a mechanic that existed long, long before then.

Finally, I checked because I thought this thread had told me the missing element to my previous failed attempts, but alas, putting a double-wrapped container into a frieghter did not allow me to equip a cov-ops cloak. I'm very dissapointed in not being able to turn my Providence into a blockade runner.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#102 - 2014-08-30 02:31:07 UTC
Sounds like a fear of the unknown. Sometimes you just need to say: shoot it anyways and take the risk.

Personally, I like the double wrap option to obscure the contents. Be it 1 Trit with a bunch of Garbage all wrapped up or some very expensive items, it is nice to know you can keep the element of mystery in space going.

Don't you like mysteries?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#103 - 2014-08-30 02:46:46 UTC
rcs619 wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
If CCP removes double wrapping then they need to give the potential targets something to balance the scales. Several thoughts are skills as mentioned above, partial cloaking capabilities, or go with a real world solution and give the haulers a fitting like the radar jamming capabilities of the real world we all live in.


So we should add modules that protect a ship against being probed down too, right? Because it's totally not fair if they're just sitting in empty space, semi-afk in an expensive booster, only to be probed down and killed. Any sort of scanning should have a counter right?


You're right to be sarcastic but actually there is a module to protect you from being probed down, it's called ECCM.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#104 - 2014-08-30 02:50:25 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Sounds like a fear of the unknown. Sometimes you just need to say: shoot it anyways and take the risk.


It's not particularly imbalanced on basic T1 industrials because you can indeed just shoot them. "Just" shooting a freighter is prohibitively expensive for almost all gankers.
Brutalis Furia
Hammer and Anvil Industries
#105 - 2014-08-30 06:28:49 UTC
Everyone's right. Double wrapping something effectively "hides" it, as such it's an exploit. It screws up killmails as well, so it exploits that mechanic too.

The fix is not to adjust the contract mechanism, but to adjust the scanning modules and results. A cargo scanner should give a readout of only volume, units and category (eg: 100,000 Minerals, 1,000 m3 could be Tritanium or Morphite). Specific value to be ascertained only on acquisition and personal examination.

Modules in the cargo scanning line would have adjustments to their fitting based of meta, but also to range, scope and additional information. I could see a m4 scanner seeing only m4 cargo and below, or a T2 scanner also reporting a breakdown of the cargo meta level.

It'd be important for this scan to be able to scan and penetrate all bays and containers and report a single block of data to the user.
Jack Reafman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2014-08-30 08:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Reafman
TheMeanPerson wrote:
making gankers have to gamble



Found the problem, you're looking for garaunteed isk, on a job that should be a gamble to begin with. See every job in Eve is a gamble. Miners get bumped all the time, traders get to the station they're selling their stuff at only to find someone beat them to it, or, worse yet, they'd not get to the place they were selling, because they get picked off by gankers. Haulers can't just leave one station, fly to another, and call it a day, they have to be watchful for gankers, WTs, they have to read the contract and look for things that are red flags that MAYBE this is a set up.

As a ganker, you have a pretty good idea of how long it takes to pop a given freighter. If this guy went with more armor it'll take that long, if that guy went with more cargo it'll take this long. You should have a pretty good idea of how long it takes for Concord to respond in any given area (or you're just bad at your job). So if A is the time it takes you to pop this freighter, and B is the time it takes for concord to show up, as long as A is greater than B you know you're going to get him. Now, as long as your cargo scanner says that his cargo is going to be worth more than your ship, you're set. Gauranteed Profit.

For Low sec it's a little different, you have to watch the gates, see who is coming and going, see if people are arriving with them, and then, same steps as above, but with even LESS of a gamble.

I won't say it's not an exploit, it's certainly an exploit. It's also an exploit that introduces a decision making step that was lacking before. A gamble, just like everyone else.

So while it is an exploit, it is not an issue. Like the GM told you.
Lothras Andastar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2014-08-30 09:10:42 UTC
So much butthurt. What happened to the HTFU attitude of the Eve I once loved.

Because the Legacy Code has too much Psssssssssssssssh, nothing will ever get fixed until CCP stop wasting money on failed sparkle MMOs and instead rewrite the entire backend of EvE from scratch.

TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#108 - 2014-09-01 04:16:18 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMeanPerson
YET another comment to add, and this one wins this forum post.

Ever try placing a can within a can? NO OBVIOUSLY you cant. WHY? Because its a Planck generator.

AND I QUOTE FROM THE ERROR MESSAGE.

"You cannot place a Planck generator container within another Planck generator, as it will cause a graviton harmonics chain reaction whose end cannot be determined."

SO WHY....

Can you put a courier within a courier?

Well obviously, it is putting a Planck generator inside of a Planck generator, and I think we have figured out what the graviton harmonics chain reaction results in, the breaking of the cargo scanning mechanic, killmails, and war reports. Thats what happens, and CCP needs to fix this.

I win. Victory is mine.

"YOU GET NOTHING, YOU LOSE!
GOOD DAY SIR!" - Willy wonka

NOW CCP FIX THIS EXPLOIT. PLEASE. :D

Edit: And for those wondering, A COURIER is also a Planck generator. (You can't put them in cans.)
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#109 - 2014-09-01 06:23:39 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Sounds like a fear of the unknown. Sometimes you just need to say: shoot it anyways and take the risk.


It's not particularly imbalanced on basic T1 industrials because you can indeed just shoot them. "Just" shooting a freighter is prohibitively expensive for almost all gankers.


Exactly. You have to deal with the simple mystery: will this gank be worth it? It is perfect. :)

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#110 - 2014-09-01 12:37:53 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Edit: And for those wondering, A COURIER is also a Planck generator. (You can't put them in cans.)

Technically, they shouldn't be, and neither should some of the cans, as they do not have the TARDIS-like ability of being bigger on the inside.
Lidia Caderu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2014-09-01 13:37:48 UTC
Quote:
allowing people to transport items with the security of people not being able to know what is inside of the cargo

Maaan what a loss...

When there is something good in game - lets crappyfy it!

So who prohibits you to kill a ship (even a WT according to description, lol) and see whats inside?

The only problem I see is incorrect KM calculation, which might be improved.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2014-09-01 13:41:00 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
YET another comment to add, and this one wins this forum post.

Ever try placing a can within a can? NO OBVIOUSLY you cant. WHY? Because its a Planck generator.

AND I QUOTE FROM THE ERROR MESSAGE.

"You cannot place a Planck generator container within another Planck generator, as it will cause a graviton harmonics chain reaction whose end cannot be determined."

SO WHY....

Can you put a courier within a courier?

Well obviously, it is putting a Planck generator inside of a Planck generator, and I think we have figured out what the graviton harmonics chain reaction results in, the breaking of the cargo scanning mechanic, killmails, and war reports. Thats what happens, and CCP needs to fix this.

I win. Victory is mine.

"YOU GET NOTHING, YOU LOSE!
GOOD DAY SIR!" - Willy wonka

NOW CCP FIX THIS EXPLOIT. PLEASE. :D

Edit: And for those wondering, A COURIER is also a Planck generator. (You can't put them in cans.)



The second wrap is a .3 mm thick layer of an AlSn alloy tied to a galvanic discharge mechanism
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#113 - 2014-09-01 14:49:11 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
YET another comment to add, and this one wins this forum post.

Ever try placing a can within a can? NO OBVIOUSLY you cant. WHY? Because its a Planck generator.


Actually you still loose because your "I win" argument is based on a false premise.

From EVElopedia
About 2/3rds of the way down the page in the types of contracts section.
"Courier

You can request that someone ferry a bunch of items for you by setting up a Courier contract. The items are all placed in a box that the contractor agrees to carry from A to B."
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contracts

Notice it states "box" not "can" and since when does EVE prohibit putting a can inside box.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#114 - 2014-09-01 23:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
As a ganker, I endorse this suggestion, but not quite as unreservedly as you might expect.

I would endorse it if (and only if) it comes at the same time as two new types of modules. Low slot, 1 CPU, 0 PG so freighters can fit them.

- Cargo Hold Concealer 1
- This module causes each item in your cargo hold to have a 25% lower chance to appear on cargo scan results. (Base chance is 100%)
- Repeated cargo scanning allows a new chance to detect each item
- DIminishing returns.
- Tech 2 version - 30%.

- Cargo Scan Disruptor 1
- This module causes any attempt to cargo scan your ship to take 40% longer.
- Diminishing returns.
- Tech 2 version - 45%.

This would provide more options for freighter pilots (the ones with a brain in their heads at least) to fit intelligently for the task at hand, and would allow CCP to close the long-standing loophole.



Edit: Also I couldn't care less about the killmail side of things.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Jack Reafman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2014-09-02 03:53:00 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Edit: And for those wondering, A COURIER is also a Planck generator. (You can't put them in cans.)

Technically, they shouldn't be, and neither should some of the cans, as they do not have the TARDIS-like ability of being bigger on the inside.



Actually, there's a lot of Time Lord Tech in Eve. Check out the size of the MTU. 100m3. How much can it hold? 27,000m3. It's bigger on the inside.

This means that, in the Eve-Verse, timelords exist.

Best game ever.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#116 - 2014-09-02 04:10:11 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Sounds like a fear of the unknown. Sometimes you just need to say: shoot it anyways and take the risk.


It's not particularly imbalanced on basic T1 industrials because you can indeed just shoot them. "Just" shooting a freighter is prohibitively expensive for almost all gankers.



I am thinking the continued existence of code. would say otherwise.

Generally alliances fall apart when more bad than good is happening. A corp/alliance can be good to be in...but if its reaching the point your are hemorrhaging isk for little to no gain....its usually when you see the people start to go its been fun but this too rich for my blood.

Now if its harder for independents who don't join the code. "blob"....well that's eve as I will direct now you to the fix null threads. Organized crews of larger size tend to make things work better. Empire "pvp'ers" now get the same meta out of empire does. Maybe you all could get together and create you own "provi" in empire to resolve this. Not a blob...but not a disoganized bunch of drunk off moonshine hillbillies running around with shotguns either.


Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-09-02 13:33:43 UTC
Jack Reafman wrote:
Actually, there's a lot of Time Lord Tech in Eve. Check out the size of the MTU. 100m3. How much can it hold? 27,000m3. It's bigger on the inside.

Well, that's its size in your cargohold. Once you deploy it, it can unpack and be much, much bigger without violating any laws of physics.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#118 - 2014-09-02 17:15:53 UTC
rcs619 wrote:

But, it gives *all* of the advantage to the haulers. There's literally no way for people trying to gank to counter the plastic wrap. Which essentially makes the whole gameplay style of cargo-scanning useless. I would call any work-around that completely nullifies an entire other play-style an exploit. Or at best a toxic mechanic that needs to be fixed. If haulers need such sweeping protection, why not just remove the cargo-scanner from the game completely? Being able to decide whether or not something is worth it is totally OP. Why not remove local chat in all of known space too? Being able to know how many hostiles are in system so that you can plan accordingly gives so many people such an unfair advantage.


You are amazingly ignorant.

Plastic wrap does NOT remove all the risk for the hauler. Why?
1.) You can usually tell when they have a plastic wrapped package in their cargo.
2.) People generally don't plastic wrap something unless it is valuable.
3.) This leaves you with a gamble, do you gank them knowing they probably have something valuable, or let them pass because it isn't worth the risk to you? You can get intel on pilots too, thereby improving your estimation odds.

Many haulers don't want to risk losing their ship when they aren't carrying anything valuable, which means they don't hide their cargo load. This limits the number of plastic wraps you encounter, which puts the odds in favor of ganking them. What has changed? Are your profit margin's so skimpy you can't afford several profitless ganks?

It really sounds like you're an incompetent ganker, that can't adapt to the changing hauling landscape.

Realize, CCP has been tweaking the ganker-gankee playstyle for as long as the game has been in play. Sometimes they do dramatic changes (Add concord, remove insurance, add ABCs, rebalance ships, etc), and sometimes they do minor changes (tweak concord response times, add lowslots to freighters, etc). In the current landscape, you can still gank for profit very effectively, if you know what you are doing. Can you please enlighten us as to why double wrapped freighters have suddenly become an issue?

To be frank, you should be lobbying for items in the Orca's SMA to drop rather than QQ'ing about double-wrapped packages.


Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#119 - 2014-09-02 18:21:38 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
"Just" shooting a freighter is prohibitively expensive for almost all gankers.


They should stop being poor, or learn to kill things that do not result in guaranteed ship loss.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#120 - 2014-09-02 20:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: GordonO
Ganking too difficult for you ???Roll

Perhaps CCP should also allow me to scan a 10/10 or other anom to see how much nano ribs/loot drops I get before I waste my time running it and end up getting nothing much of value.

Ganker tears best tears Blink

EDIT- I double wrap everything I haul on my hauler alt.. even if its just ammo.. I feel I need to make it fun for gankers too..

... What next ??