These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

War Decs as a griefing tool

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#561 - 2014-09-01 15:07:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
If it's boring then don't do it? You always have the option of coming together and fighting the WarDeccers.
I don't get involved in wardeccers. My high sec guys operate from NPC corps and my mains operate from null. Much like many people operating from NPC corps, I don't consider it entertaining to lose an unarmed hauler to 20 12 year olds who then proceed to pat themselves on the back chanting "GF" in local. And therein lies the issue. You can't expect NPC players to choose to put themselves out for nothing.


Hence why a 20% tax on NPC corps would be good. They have a reason to want to be in a player corp that offers them less tax.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#562 - 2014-09-01 15:11:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Thus increasing their risk


But not to the level it's at now. So again, you're proposing that the risk be reduced but not the reward. Bad argument dude, sorry.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Or NPC corps stay the way they are, people continue to wardec soft targets and people continue to move into NPC corps to avoid them....


And eventually quit EVE out of boredom. Which is good, because we need less players like you and more players who accept EVE for what it is without some silly preconceptions about "space honor".

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#563 - 2014-09-01 15:14:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Hence why a 20% tax on NPC corps would be good. They have a reason to want to be in a player corp that offers them less tax.
Right, and do you really think a blanket nerf alone will have that result rather than just a monument shooting? Plus you'd need to do something else to stop it just being an attack on mission runners.

Personally I'd be happy with people getting massive reductions in all possible income after a set time if some concessions were made from the other side too.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#564 - 2014-09-01 15:19:26 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I just want CCP to change the game so Marmite drops their dec against my alliance and my logistics become easier. :(


Not empty quoting. Bear

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#565 - 2014-09-01 15:21:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Hence why a 20% tax on NPC corps would be good. They have a reason to want to be in a player corp that offers them less tax.
Right, and do you really think a blanket nerf alone will have that result rather than just a monument shooting? Plus you'd need to do something else to stop it just being an attack on mission runners.

Personally I'd be happy with people getting massive reductions in all possible income after a set time if some concessions were made from the other side too.


They get wardec immunity. That alone is massive.
Kurosaki Rukia
The House of Flying Stabbers
#566 - 2014-09-01 15:24:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:
I don't know how you could possibly make that sweeping generalization. Last time anyone attempted to suicide gank me I had a blast! Three catalysts versus my mac... three cats exploded, I warped out still in armour, and smack talked them in local no end for being fail gankers, I had an awesome time doing it, and went about my day.
Thus all gankees are having fun? Is that what you are getting at here? You survive being ganked and thought it was funny, therefore anyone who gets ganked must be having fun doing so?

You said that being ganked was one-sided content. My assertion is that it's only one sided content when you refuse to take responsibility for your own safety. Those who do take responsibility for their own safety often find fun in adversity. Thus is ceases to be one-sided content.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:
It only becomes one sided content when you forget it's a game, forget that you're the protagonists of your own story, and start wishing for others, or even the hand of god to save you.
No, it's one sided content when what you enjoy, when your content, is no longer viable because someone else's content is deemed to be more important. If NPC corps were removed without wardecs being remodelled, it would be forcing people who enjoy PvE to be fodder for people who just want to shoot easy targets. It wouldn't promote skill or a challenge, it wouldn't produce entertainment, it would just be a way to eject part of the community.

The part of the community that desires rewards without risk want to undermine the very thing that makes Eve great. When I started playing Eve I was drawn to it because nowhere is ever truly safe. The danger is what makes it rewarding. Gaining rewards is more rewarding when there is risk and adversity between you and those rewards. If you take that away, you sell Eve's soul to the devil. Eve is unique. There's nothing else like it. Why should it sell its very soul to appease those who already have a myriad of themepark MMOs where they can go and play their way completely safe little bubble, free from ever having to interact with anyone? Why should the one game that's based on risk-reward, taking personal responsibility for one's own safety, and the possibility of other players messing up your day be the one to conform to the themepark MMO formulae where players get to gain rewards without taking any risks? My understanding of uniqueness is that, when you have 1000 things that are all the same, that 1 thing that is different is more valuable for its differences, and by making it conform you are doing yourself and others great harm by removing the possibility of ever having your own perceptions challenged.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Good for you, but the ability to find a counter doesn't mean that what you are countering isn't unbalanced. Too little effort needs to be put in on the side of the aggressors. If we just went with leaving everything as is if it had a counter, nothing would get nerfed, and things like drone assist (which had counters they were just unreasonably unbalanced) would remain the same.

The things I am countering were ballanced around people who take responsibility for their own safety. Just because the group who refuses to take responsibility for their own safety finds them unbalanced, doesn't mean they are unbalanced.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#567 - 2014-09-01 15:24:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They get wardec immunity. That alone is massive.
Agreed, which is why they should be encouraged out. But you don't encourage people out by setting fire to their house then repeatedly punching them in the face when they try to get out of the door.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#568 - 2014-09-01 15:26:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They get wardec immunity. That alone is massive.
Agreed, which is why they should be encouraged out. But you don't encourage people out by setting fire to their house then repeatedly punching them in the face when they try to get out of the door.


9% more tax isn't setting their house on fire, its poking them with a stick.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#569 - 2014-09-01 15:46:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They get wardec immunity. That alone is massive.
Agreed, which is why they should be encouraged out. But you don't encourage people out by setting fire to their house then repeatedly punching them in the face when they try to get out of the door.


9% more tax isn't setting their house on fire, its poking them with a stick.
Well yes, most wouldn't be encouraged out by 9% at all, just mission runners who, judging by their reaction to loot reprocessing changes, would explode into an enormous ball of rage and quit. But if they really wanted to encourage people out of NPC corps, they would need to do something to make sure they didn't walk into a firing squad when they did.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#570 - 2014-09-01 19:20:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They get wardec immunity. That alone is massive.
Agreed, which is why they should be encouraged out. But you don't encourage people out by setting fire to their house then repeatedly punching them in the face when they try to get out of the door.


9% more tax isn't setting their house on fire, its poking them with a stick.
Well yes, most wouldn't be encouraged out by 9% at all, just mission runners who, judging by their reaction to loot reprocessing changes, would explode into an enormous ball of rage and quit. But if they really wanted to encourage people out of NPC corps, they would need to do something to make sure they didn't walk into a firing squad when they did.


In two years my corp has been wardeced three times and they were all bad at it. Hardly a firing squad.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#571 - 2014-09-02 00:17:25 UTC
I have removed several off-topic, trolling, non-constructive, and personal-attack laden posts from this thread. Please keep it civil and on topic if you're going to reply.

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

23. Post constructively.

Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#572 - 2014-09-02 01:19:11 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
move to lowsec or null and avoid fake pvpers


Bit of a false economy there. Move to low to farm harder. Right..
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#573 - 2014-09-02 03:25:15 UTC
To the OP - if you are still reading this, I 100% sympathize with you. Wardecs and Awoxing are what make highsec corps completely useless in my view, and I would suggest that you never be part of one. If you want to live in highsec (as I do), stick to the NPC Corp, or, even better just make your own 1 man corp with 0% tax (as I have). Wardecs can be handled by just dropping and reforming the corp.

And the great part is that you don't really need the corp to interact with other people. You can still run missions, incursions, mine, haul, etc.. with other people, and CONCORD will protect you if they shoot at you. And you never have to worry about other players forcing you into non-consensual PvP without CONCORD protection. To try to fight the professional pvp wardeccers is just crazy...if you want pvp do some NPSI fleets, or join a nullsec corp. If you really are determined to go highsec corp, try Eve Uni or Brave Newbies, which at least have the numbers to be able to fight off wars.

One mechanic I do find a bit irritating is wardeccs against 1 man corps...why are they allowed? It just means 3 minutes of paperwork to close and reform my corp. How is that a useful activity? Why not just disallow them, since basically no one is going to fight them.

Also, the whole anti-NPC corp sentiment is kind of odd, since you can replicate the experience in a 1-man corp without any troubles. And good luck trying to ban those.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#574 - 2014-09-02 03:44:25 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Wardecs and Awoxing are what make highsec corps completely useless in my view, and I would suggest that you never be part of one.
Do you remember how I told you that you are a newbie griefer? This is yet another case of it. Neither wardecs nor awoxing make highsec corps useless, and new players should strive to join a corp as soon as possible. It is by far the best way of finding your place in the game and have fun in the long term.

Quote:
One mechanic I do find a bit irritating is wardeccs against 1 man corps...why are they allowed?
Because wardecs are allowed against corps.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#575 - 2014-09-02 03:44:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Well, for starters, to fix the dec dodging exploit that you make such good use of, dropping corp during a wardec should generate a killright on you. This would accompany a price rework for wardecs.

Secondly, NPC corp taxes should be doubled for anyone who is in one for more than 30 days total. They should be for new players to find their feet, or a temporary home in between being in a real corp.

In addition to this, mission agents should run out of missions for a day, after you've done a few. They should not be infinite from just one person in one place, that makes zero realistic sense and is immersion breaking. That way, people are forced to move around between areas, and cultivate many missions agents in order to be able to do it all day. To compensate for this, faction missions would basically be removed, of course, so no one burns down bridges without meaning to.

Also, CONCORD should be temporarily tankable. They should deal a certain amount of DPS that ramps up every few seconds, and they should not jam their target. Their response time would also be random, between -25% and +25% from what it is now.

And lastly, pirate NPCs should now gatecamp gates in 0.5 and 0.6 space. Nothing too extreme of course, less than 150 dps. I call it, "mid sec".

Because PvP is not a thing that should only happen in lowsec or nullsec. According to CCP themselves, EVE is a PvP game first, last, and always, and that should be properly reflected in highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#576 - 2014-09-02 03:47:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Well, for starters, to fix the dec dodging exploit that you make such good use of, dropping corp during a wardec should generate a killright on you. This would accompany a price rework for wardecs.

Secondly, NPC corp taxes should be doubled for anyone who is in one for more than 30 days total. They should be for new players to find their feet, or a temporary home in between being in a real corp.

In addition to this, mission agents should run out of missions for a day, after you've done a few. They should not be infinite from just one person in one place, that makes zero realistic sense and is immersion breaking. That way, people are forced to move around between areas, and cultivate many missions agents in order to be able to do it all day. To compensate for this, faction missions would basically be removed, of course, so no one burns down bridges without meaning to.

Also, CONCORD should be temporarily tankable. They should deal a certain amount of DPS that ramps up every few seconds, and they should not jam their target. Their response time would also be random, between -25% and +25% from what it is now.

And lastly, pirate NPCs should now gatecamp gates in 0.5 and 0.6 space. Nothing too extreme of course, less than 150 dps. I call it, "mid sec".

Because PvP is not a thing that should only happen in lowsec or nullsec. According to CCP themselves, EVE is a PvP game first, last, and always, and that should be properly reflected in highsec.


Except that some of us like living in highsec and not losing the protection of CONCORD. Why on earth would you design the game to force me into something I don't want to do? Thankfully I think there is 0 chance of CCP doing anything like this.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#577 - 2014-09-02 03:48:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Wardecs and Awoxing are what make highsec corps completely useless in my view, and I would suggest that you never be part of one.
Do you remember how I told you that you are a newbie griefer? This is yet another case of it. Neither wardecs nor awoxing make highsec corps useless, and new players should strive to join a corp as soon as possible. It is by far the best way of finding your place in the game and have fun in the long term.

Quote:
One mechanic I do find a bit irritating is wardeccs against 1 man corps...why are they allowed?
Because wardecs are allowed against corps.


Meh, I enjoy operating without a corp, and have a great time in the game. If someone wants to join a corp, I see no reason to stay in highsec. Why not go to lowsec/nullsec/wh where the issues of losing CONCORD protection and awoxing are irrelevent?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#578 - 2014-09-02 03:51:45 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Except that some of us like living in highsec and not losing the protection of CONCORD.


Nothing takes CONCORD away, just makes it more realistic, less infallible magic space police.

And, as I can see from your forum posting, you are all for realism.



Quote:

Why on earth would you design the game to force me into something I don't want to do?


That's rich, coming from the guy who literally just said that if you want PvP, you should be forced to go to low or null.

But then, like all carebears, you are a hypocrite.


Quote:

Thankfully I think there is 0 chance of CCP doing anything like this.


Heh, more than you'd think.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#579 - 2014-09-02 03:55:00 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Except that some of us like living in highsec and not losing the protection of CONCORD.


Nothing takes CONCORD away, just makes it more realistic, less infallible magic space police.

And, as I can see from your forum posting, you are all for realism.



Quote:

Why on earth would you design the game to force me into something I don't want to do?


That's rich, coming from the guy who literally just said that if you want PvP, you should be forced to go to low or null.

But then, like all carebears, you are a hypocrite.


Quote:

Thankfully I think there is 0 chance of CCP doing anything like this.


Heh, more than you'd think.



Not sure what you mean....I am fine with pvp through suicide ganking in highsec, just not with forcing people to operate without CONCORD protection. The challenge for people like me is to tank long enough until CONCORD arrives. Joining a highsec corp means I would need to deal with wars and awoxing, in which case just tanking for 20 seconds or so is no longer enough, essentially recreating lowsec/nullsec in highsec. I just literally see no benefit to highsec corps - as the OP points out they get wardecced into hopeless wars, and as can be seen from youtube etc., lots of awoxers love to join these corps just to kill people and steal things.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#580 - 2014-09-02 03:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Meh, I enjoy operating without a corp, and have a great time in the game.
That's nice, but that doesn't mean that highsec corps are useless.
It just means that you somehow have no need for the many many benefits they provide.

Quote:
If someone wants to join a corp, I see no reason to stay in highsec.
The reasons to stay in highsec does not change just because you join a corp.

Quote:
Why not go to lowsec/nullsec/wh where the issues of losing CONCORD protection and awoxing are irrelevent?

Awoxing happens outside highsec as well, you know, and any “issues of losing CONCORD protection” (never mind that nothing of the kind really exists) are, if anything, massively amplified since rather than enjoying them pretty much always, you now never have any such “protection”.

So if losing it is an issue, how is it an improvement if that loss is permanent?