Missions & Complexes

Ahh hallo fellow nullbear ranger, patting yourself on the back for living a life of virtual danger.

Most impressive...virtually.

I don't even ... lol. Next time make sure the quote is correct though and split it up properly so you don't misquote people.
I can only tell you that you don't understand incursions completely. You might have a vague idea of them or you might have been in a couple of fleets, but you don't have the perspective of incursions as someone who have run them for almost 11 months and been in every single site/fleet possible, except nullsec.

For one, are you even aware of how many incursion runners can actively run incursions in highsec for that matter? I'll tell you this, it's far below 1000 pilots.

-Arazel


You seem to be selective in how you are accounting for disadvantages

lp: If a mission runner is going to get half of what you get they will need to cash in their lp at a high rate. As for the time it takes to research and sell the lp items it’s the same. They just have far fewer options.

Mission runners also have to run all their loot and salvage to a hub. You get isk in your wallet.

You say you need a billion plus ship. What do you think a mission runner will need to pull in 80-125 mill per hour?

You can only realistically compare the isk you get from incursions to low sec mission running. Do you really think the risk reward of running level 5s is comparable to high sec incursions?

I do know what you will get in about an hour of running fw missions for amarr. You will run about 3 missions in an hour - if your lucky. But then again you may find your missions camped (they pop up on the overview so everyone in the system can warp there!) in which case you just wasted your time.

If you have max skills and you already spent the time grinding low level missions to get your standings maxed that will net you about 90k lp for the 3 missions. No loot, no bounties, and isk payouts are in the neighborhood of 1.5 mill per mission. If you want to move the items you get from the fw lp store you will make about 1.5k/lp or 135 mill per hour. Oh and by the way if you grind these missions you will not be able to go into 25-50% of high sec because your standing will get killed. My minmatar standings are negative 9.8 and my gallente are about to -5 due to running amarr missions.

And yes you need to do the logistics to sell this lp. Lets call that a wash with your moving to each new incursion sight.

At least this is the case for amarr. Caldari can supposedly run more missions solo in a stealth bomber. And yes that needs to be changed. So comparing this to something else that is widely agreed needs to be nerfed is not really helping your cause.

As far as incursions being inaccessible to the more casual player who doesn't play for hours on end, I don't think this is a good reason to have them pay so much more.

Man, the high sec bears are out with a vengeance in this thread.

It's funny how much bullshit you guys spew. I've talked with the guys running incursions in high sec, the ones that aren't looking to bullshit people and protect their massive easy mode isk. It's hardly any risk, and you guys know it. If you're still assuming any risk, it's because you're a fool and you don't have a set group of friends to run them with and you still hang out in public channels running with public fleets. That's great if you just started, but if you're there for any length of time you're doing it wrong.

You guys love to throw around 60 mil/hr all the time for missions, then say that you really make 120 mil/hr incursions if you're lucky. Complete. Utter. Bullshit. 60 mil from lvl 4 missions these days with LP deflation requires you to have incredible efficiency. It's not comparable to your 100-120 mil claims. 100-120 mil is with a fleet of baddies. Be realistic. You need super blinged out boats (read: gank targets) to pull 60 mil/hr from missions in high sec these days, and with equivalent boats you'd be making 200 mil/hr in incursions

Oh, but you need to get a fleet! Big ******* deal. I run around in fleets every day, with logi's, gang boosts, etc etc. Just like you all do. It's not hard at all, and it's ridiculous to see you pretend like it is. Once you have an established group of guys you have your fleet in an hour, tops. You guys talk like that's such a horribly complex and difficult thing that it instantly entitles you to at least 3x the reward of a guy running missions solo. That's excessive. Yes, it should pay a premium, but not that much and you know it.

Incursions are 200 mil/hr in raw isk (not even including that "worthless" LP) if you actually know what you're doing. At very little risk. Stop trying to bullshit everybody, we're not that oblivious to how things work. Now, I'm perfectly fine with that if say...you buff other things to at least somewhat compare. Right now, it's a massive imbalance. A miner makes what...10 mil/hr in high sec? Not even? The average missioner that's in a pimp ship 40-50 mil/hr? High sec exploration? Eh, I averaged around 100 mil/hr in high sec, but the vast majority make FAR less doing it.

It's broken, and you all know it is. Either buff other things to at least semi comparable levels, or drop incursions down a tad. I'm not calling for a massive nerf, but it needs some adjustment downwards.

Inb4 massive incursion-runner rage calling me dumb/clueless/lying. Incursion runners on the forums are rarely honest, and I really can't blame you guys. After all, you're making a killing. If I was really wanting more isk, I'd probably be right there with you. It's probably either the 1st or 2nd most profitable thing you can do in the game right now short of playing the markets.

Not so much that I'm mad, just feel like saying something after seeing so much blatant bs on here.

And meh, I think things could use some tweaking. I'm loving the game regardless, but I don't see any reason why CCP should really have things quite so imbalanced income wise.

Ok, lets talk risk, since that seems to be what everyone here is getting so uptight about. Ranked from lowest risk to highest risk:

Highsec exploration - you are generally in a cheap(ish) ship, don't often carry tons of loot, and are constantly moving about. Unless you pull a stupid and jump into a lowsec camp (lemming button ftw), you aren't going to die... ever.

Lvl 4 missions - they're in highsec, there are so many bears, that even though some people like ganking bears you probably will not be one of them.

Nullsec ratting (w/ intel channels/bue space) - you're in nullsec with all your buddies. Anyone stupid enough to come out after you is going to have a PvP gang on their ass as soon as they appear in intel channels. And because of those intel channels, if there are any reds/neuts nearby, you dock up. Loose a ship - its cause you're stupid.

Incursions - sansha can, occasionally, kill a player. Usually because a logi DC's, someone pulls a trick on a logi, or the logi's are idiots and don't rep you. Also because its all in one area of space, and there are massive numbers of high isk ships there, ganking is much more common. Not saying the risk is incredible, just saying that it is higher than lvl 4's or ratting

WH space - there is no local. But, there is this wonderful thing called a deep space probe launcher. Put it out after you've found everything and collapsed/criticaled your static, set to ignore all, and then hit scan every once in a while. And spam your d-scan button. WH space is horridly underpopulated, and many WH's have no visitors for days. And by using the deep space probe launcher trick, you can guarantee that you see it whenever ANYONE comes into yours. If you're dumb, you'll loose ships occasionally. If you're not dumb, you're safer than even in highsec exploration. The only reason why WH space ranks higher than incursions is because of the dumb people and because you are living out of a POS, and anyone who REALLY wants your space can kick you out, POS and all.

Lowsec FW missions - lvl 4 missions can be done in a stealth bomber. As for your mission showing up in local... that might matter if you had to do more than kill a few ships in a site. And of course, there is no detriment to not completing it except you don't get paid - no standing hit, nothing. You can go ahead, accept a dozen or so, and go out on a long binge running them, just abandoning the systems that are being camped, and leading those following you on a merry chase. Of course, it is still lowsec, and there are all sorts of people actively trying to kill you, which is why this ranks as the third highest risk on my list

Lowsec missions (lvl 4's and lvl 5's) - so you are running missions, which generally require a specific tank, are hard to do in something non-expensive, unless you sacrifice mobility, and if you do sacrifice mobility you get caught by pirates. You are everyones favorite target - jucy, can't really fight back... they just have to catch you to kill you.

nullsec ratting (red space) - remember how I said that ratting in blue space, you have intel channels and PvPer's wanting to kill you... yeah... red space, the OTHER side has the intel channels and is trying to kill you - and they have bubbles... this is really not worth the risk, unless you're jumping systems in a bomber to rat up your sec status...

So as we can see here, the only place that there is any significant risk is in lowsec, or NBSI nullsec (when you aren't blue). However, since lowsec is the graveyard of eve, where ideas go to die, and won't be fixed short of CCP actually coming up with a general plan for how they want their game to work, I say that we just ignore that and compare the others. And of them, WH's have the most risk (fitting, because you can get the most isk there solo, and the most isk there in groups), followed by incursions (grouped, you can get more isk there than anywhere else other than WH space), followed by blue nullsec (which is mostly solo play), then by lvl 4's, and lastly by highsec exploration (which is more like gambling, and less like isk/hour). Also generally according to this risk analysis is how much they pay for the average player. Once again, only lowsec is the outlier, being the most risky, and not having that great of reward.

So if we ignore lowsec, the biggest factor seperating the isk amounts for the various activities is how many people are flying together. Here incursions have the highest, followed by WH's, with exploration, mission running, and nullsec ratting all being solo activities. The only problem with incursions is that vanguards are more profitable than assaults/HQ's. Are incursions an isk faucet? Yes. Are WH's an isk faucet? Yes. Are nullsec anomalies an isk faucet? Yes. Are lvl 4 missions an isk faucet? Yes. Yay - everything is an isk faucet! Lets nerf it all so that way mining makes the most isk...

Now, STFU, choose the isk faucet of your choice, and stop whining.

-Arazel

everyone should move to null set each other to blue watch the intel channels and come to the forums complain about incursions. funny guys.

anyway most people in this thread are totally missing the point of what ccp are trying to accomplish with incursions. you want me to spell it out for you?

Would I like to see lowsec buffed? Hell yes. As it is right now it is the wasteland of eve - it is where ideas go to die. Something does need to be done for lowsec... and with the amount of attention it gets from CCP, perhaps making all lowsec into NPC nullsec is the way to go - then it might actually get some attention.

As for the risk/reward ratio, aside from lowsec everythign else is consistent. This one blight upon the face of the game is getting idiots like you to claim "everything is broken, it must get nerfed".

And tell us this - how does income break eve? I seem to remember up to about 6 months ago that everyone was complaining that lvl 4 missions break eve because they are common, they pay to much, and they should all be moved to lowsec because they break the game. Then the general population figured out that incursions actually pay pretty decently (not all of them... there are still a few idiots making threads about moving lvl 4's to lowsec), and since then it has all been whines about how incursions break eve, and they should be nerfed and moved to lowsec. What is it really about for you? Are you upset that other people are playing in a different playstyle from you? Or are you upset that you aren't on top of the heap for isk making?

Or is it that you feel that with so much isk, it isn't a big deal to loose a t2 ship? Or to loose a battleship? Or that more people are able to afford capital ships/t3's, etc? Personally, I like that more people have more isk. Having more isk tends to lead to people being more willing to loose said isk, and when you can afford to purchase a new t2 cruiser after 3 hours, instead of after 10 hours, you are more likely to fly that t2 cruiser and experiment with it.



Aha! Finally to the heart of the matter... you want to get paid for PvP, and PvP is very risky, so therefore it should pay the most. Guess what... you don't get paid to kill other players, unless you're a pirate and that is just a matter of looting their fresh, still warm corpse. And when looting a full t2 corpse might pay all of 5 mil, it doesn't make much. You know... you could have just bypassed all that typing and started a new thread in general discussion that said "remove PvE from the game, PvP should pay isk" and left it at that. You would probably get a lot more people agreeing with you, and if CCP ever made that change you would be a happy camper until the server shut down 6 months later because the majority of players left. Unless of course it went all free to play, and then you would have other things to complain about then too.

-Arazel

ill add that the tools need improving, and the incursion runners need to be made to move maybe an escalation.

edit ill offer my services for protecting the fleet inside./ early warning.