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Really torn between Minmatar and Amarr
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mkjkgkvk Melkan
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-12-10 12:14:54 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Minmatar is the best overall PvP race, you'll get lots of good ships training them. Amarr, Gallente and Caldari are PvP specialists - they excel in certain tasks but are overall not as good, you'll get some excellent ships but many others that are so-so.

If you don't care about PvP stay Caldari unless you want to specialize in Incursions, then get a Legion.

PVE too, lets not forget the macharial and vargur :D
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-12-10 12:15:19 UTC
Train up frigs to choose a weapon system. Try incursus with blasters, merlin with rails, rifter with ac's or slicer with pulses. Based on that, make your choice for guns/ships to train.
Bamfordi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2011-12-10 12:24:28 UTC
Pryvate Pile wrote:
I like amarr ships as much as the next fleet smugdog, but for new players the obvious choice is minmatar. They're simply easier to fit and the ship progression is far less punishing for lower sp players. Anyone who argues otherwise has forgotten what it's like to have AWU-0 while trying to fit non-matar ships.


Don't forget they also have to train two types of weapon skills and armor and shield tanking skills. I would say minnie since this guy obviously has shield/missile skills already and minmatar i concede are pretty cool and widely viewed as the best in a lot of roles. TBH just look at the ships yourself and see which you like. I'm a fan of amarr and their gold burning awesomeness so i'm several several millions of sp's of pure godlyness, caldari arent that bad maybe think of becoming an expert in that field before cross training. But, its your game...have fun.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#24 - 2011-12-10 12:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
DarkAegix wrote:
Winmatar.
Easier to fit & fly.

Amarr is too frustrating. The Harby can't fit the highest sized medium pulses without serious drawbacks.


You're absolutely annoying. Just shut up, seriously. You can fit Heavy Pulses on a shield-tanked Harbinger just fine, same as with the Hurricane. You won't be able to fit 425mm ACs on an armor-tanked Hurricane.


To the Op:

Assuming this is for PvP, it depends really. Harbinger is a good solo and gang ship, and Zealot is win in small gangs (I've had more than 40 kills in my current Zealot running around in small Genos gangs this and last month).

Minmatar has the advantage of a bit easier fittings and more solo-capable ships like the Hurricane and Rupture.

You can shield-tank both races, so that's a non-issue, although Amarr BS are primarily armor tanked.

Minmatar usually fight in fall-off, while Amarr rules at medium combat ranges due to optimal. Lasers are pretty win, and even more so due to most ships being shield-tanked in 0.0.

All Amarr T1 stuff below BCs is pretty crap though (except the Punisher and Arbitrator, maybe), while Minmatar is fine in that regard. Amarr starts having good ships beginning with the Harbinger and gets better from there.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-12-10 13:29:10 UTC
Do like me, train both.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-12-10 14:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Kingwood wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Winmatar.
Easier to fit & fly.

Amarr is too frustrating. The Harby can't fit the highest sized medium pulses without serious drawbacks.


You're absolutely annoying. Just shut up, seriously. You can fit Heavy Pulses on a shield-tanked Harbinger just fine, same as with the Hurricane. You won't be able to fit 425mm ACs on an armor-tanked Hurricane.


Shield tanking the Harby is a serious drawback.
Oh, and look, 425mm ACs on an armour-cane:
[Hurricane, Brawler]

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x5



Do some research before embarrassing yourself! Canes, and Minmatar, are easy to fit. This fit can even manage a medium neut. If you don't have the skill, drop down to another small one. Frigs won't be a problem, regardless.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#27 - 2011-12-10 15:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
DarkAegix wrote:


Do some research before embarrassing yourself! Canes, and Minmatar, are easy to fit. This fit can even manage a medium neut. If you don't have the skill, drop down to another small one. Frigs won't be a problem, regardless.


Cool, as long as we're down-grading something:

[Harbinger, heavy pulse armor tank]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

Gets 61.7k EHP compared to the Cane's 69k. 693 DPS (Harbinger) vs. 629 DPS (Cane), both non-overheated. Swap out ANP for EANM (CPU is tight) and yet get 65k EHP on the Harb. Go with 2x EANM + 1x ANP and you get 605 DPS with the exact same EHP as the Cane on the Harb which is fine considering you have much better optimal.

1600mm plated FMP harb:

[Harbinger, FMP armor]

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5


73.4k EHP, 620 DPS (Multifreq). 527 DPS Scorch with 20.3km optimal, about 130 m/s slower than the Hurricane.

Cane wins if fight starts at 0 (and even that is going to be very very close, it's a very even fight), Harb wins if it starts at range. Wow, who'd have known. It's like magic.

Seriously, stop spouting non-sense about Minmatar - it just isn't true.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-12-10 19:01:57 UTC
Dudes. Try your average everyday normal shield tanked hurricane on a Harbinger. They share an exact same slot layout so it should work, right?

Nope. have perfect fitting skills. I'm out of CPU and PG by a mile. Fitting an harbinger is almost always tricky. I'll have to downgrade to Focused turrets. I'll have to settle for an Adaptive Nano Plating instead of EANM. Have to drop yet another Heat Sink. Fitting an Hurricane involve slapping mods on and that's it. It need a PDS for Tech 2 720s and that's it.

An Heavy Pulse II harbinger can only dream of fitting a medium neut without crapping itself out with expensive meta 4 or doing something stupid like flying with only 1 Heat Sink or any silly variation thereof. 425mm Hurricane will boast TWO tech 2 neuts without breaking a sweat. Cap-less weapons, selectable damage type. On and on and on... Hurricane can nuke it's own cap using neuts and don't care one bit for it. What will happen if it cap out? Droped tackle for a bit. The Invuln turn off? Won't matter. It's still pumping DPS on target and you can bet your target will be capped out for good just the same. Want a medium NOS for the Harby's utility high? haha... ::sad panda: Now try and fit a medium cap booster on that Harbinger. It NEED cap to function. Fitting problems just got even worse.

You think Minnies are not easy/too good? Im sorry I sound so harsh but you either have your head up your ass or **** for brain.

The end.

It knows what you think.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#29 - 2011-12-10 19:22:51 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
Dudes. Try your average everyday normal shield tanked hurricane on a Harbinger. They share an exact same slot layout so it should work, right?

Nope. have perfect fitting skills. I'm out of CPU and PG by a mile. Fitting an harbinger is almost always tricky. I'll have to downgrade to Focused turrets. I'll have to settle for an Adaptive Nano Plating instead of EANM. Have to drop yet another Heat Sink. Fitting an Hurricane involve slapping mods on and that's it. It need a PDS for Tech 2 720s and that's it.

An Heavy Pulse II harbinger can only dream of fitting a medium neut without crapping itself out with expensive meta 4 or doing something stupid like flying with only 1 Heat Sink or any silly variation thereof. 425mm Hurricane will boast TWO tech 2 neuts without breaking a sweat. Cap-less weapons, selectable damage type. On and on and on... Hurricane can nuke it's own cap using neuts and don't care one bit for it. What will happen if it cap out? Droped tackle for a bit. The Invuln turn off? Won't matter. It's still pumping DPS on target and you can bet your target will be capped out for good just the same. Want a medium NOS for the Harby's utility high? haha... ::sad panda: Now try and fit a medium cap booster on that Harbinger. It NEED cap to function. Fitting problems just got even worse.

You think Minnies are not easy/too good? Im sorry I sound so harsh but you either have your head up your ass or **** for brain.

The end.


Dunno about you, but I'm able to fit this fine.

[Harbinger, Shield tanked]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II

Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Co-Processor II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5

Yeah, Harbinger can't fit a medium neut and I'm using a Co-Pro II, but it has Scorch and 26km optimal with 1x TE. I really don't get the whiners who tout all the Minmatar advantages like easier fitting yet ignore the other races' advantages. Not all fights in Eve are brawl at 0 - maybe it's time for you to get out of lol-blob fleets.

Minmatar are fine, stop whining.
Feriluce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-12-11 00:07:32 UTC
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I think im going to go for minmatar for now. It just seems a bit more varied, and I'm not too fond of being out of cap all the time.
Shadow Mancer
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#31 - 2011-12-11 03:39:56 UTC
1. Matari's strength: good falloff, fast lock, better tracking, versatile shield tank or armor tank or nano phoon tank. Minmatar has vagabond which is fun and fast.

2. Amarr's strength: laser never run out bullets, good em damage. Awesome armor tank, Curse and bhaalgorn are uperawesome ships.

I trained for.matari first than amarr
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
Lux Inter Astra
#32 - 2011-12-11 06:00:54 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
Do like me, train both.


This guy has it right. Blood Raider ships ftmfw.

Bhaalgorn, Ashimmu, Cruor = best ships ever.
VKhaun Vex
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-12-11 06:28:59 UTC
Feriluce wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I think im going to go for minmatar for now. It just seems a bit more varied, and I'm not too fond of being out of cap all the time.


I'm rather inexperienced and wouldn't pretend to know enough to give a recommendation, but I think it should be noted that Minmatar don't have the capacitor strength of Amarr ships and nothing says you can't fly an Amarr ship with projectiles. I've seen a few threads about Abaddons with artillery, down to Vengeance/Malediction with auto cannons. Bonused capacitors that were large to begin with, using zero cap weapons has them pulling sick active tank numbers. You could easily have the best of both worlds training Amarr and projectile turrets.

Charges Twilight fans with Ka-bar -Surfin's PlunderBunny LIIIIIIIIIIINNEEEEE PIIIEEEECCCCEEE!!!!!!! -Taedrin Using relativity to irrational numbers is smart -rodyas I no longer believe we landed on the moon. -Atticus Fynch
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2011-12-11 07:50:45 UTC
VKhaun Vex wrote:
You could easily have the best of both worlds training Amarr and projectile turrets.


Using a bandaid aint best of the both worlds. Not to mention you still get neuted out by the capless boys with you shiny active tank setup.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-12-11 09:15:08 UTC
If i was the OP, i would make sure i could fly and fit every Caldari T1 ship there is, then fly a select number of T2 ships. For example:
- All T1 and T2 frigates
- HACs, Recons, logistics.

T1 all the way to BS though, including the badgers.

Sink some SPs into gunnery, and aim for AWU 4 as well, then you can aim for T2 large projectiles (imo better than T2 hybrids). Then once you cross train over, it will take far less time to fit up and T1 Matar ship you like.

Also, aim hard for the Tengu, ven if you dont get one straight away. They are awesome PVE income making machines should you ever get poor

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-12-11 09:54:15 UTC
As always, most of the people are comparing the wrong damage numbers.

When a hurricane has 400dps according to EFT and a harbinger has 350dps. The harbi will still outdamage the cane.

Reason is simple: The harbi will be fighting at optimal (+- 20km) while the cane will be fighting in falloff.


I think most of the people in this thread do not fly the ships because this is BASIC knowledge! Yes BASIC!!!

The numbers in EFT for minmatar dps should be halved if you want real numbers.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-12-11 10:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
DeBingJos wrote:
As always, most of the people are comparing the wrong damage numbers.

When a hurricane has 400dps according to EFT and a harbinger has 350dps. The harbi will still outdamage the cane.

Reason is simple: The harbi will be fighting at optimal (+- 20km) while the cane will be fighting in falloff.


I think most of the people in this thread do not fly the ships because this is BASIC knowledge! Yes BASIC!!!

The numbers in EFT for minmatar dps should be halved if you want real numbers.



Hurricane still wins due to superior damage types, neuting and speed. Explains why Hurricanes are several times more popular than Harbingers despite shallow EFT comparisons.

Using the 425mm AC and FMP setups posted earlier:

Harbi: 68k EHP vs Barrage, 503 dps vs the Hurricane at 15 km.
Hurricane: 93k EHP vs Scorch, 429 dps vs Harbi at 15 km.

The Hurricane is 129 m/s faster and should win this easily.


Edit: as has been said "the argument is over". It has already been established that Hurricanes and Drakes are vastly more popular than other BCs and there's got to be a reason for that. In general AC ships do extremely well despite their obvious drawbacks. Any theories that contradict reality must be incorrect or incomplete.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2011-12-11 10:53:47 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
As always, most of the people are comparing the wrong damage numbers.

When a hurricane has 400dps according to EFT and a harbinger has 350dps. The harbi will still outdamage the cane.

Reason is simple: The harbi will be fighting at optimal (+- 20km) while the cane will be fighting in falloff.


I think most of the people in this thread do not fly the ships because this is BASIC knowledge! Yes BASIC!!!

The numbers in EFT for minmatar dps should be halved if you want real numbers.



Hurricane still wins due to superior damage types, neuting and speed. Explains why Hurricanes are several times more popular than Harbingers despite shallow EFT comparisons.

Using the 425mm AC and FMP setups posted earlier:

Harbi: 68k EHP vs Barrage, 503 dps vs the Hurricane at 15 km.
Hurricane: 93k EHP vs Scorch, 429 dps vs Harbi at 15 km.

The Hurricane is 129 m/s faster and should win this easily.


Troll? At all lv 5 skills WITH OVERHEAT and 3x Gyrostab II I get 375dps at 15km from a cane with barrage.
ALL LV 5 WITH OVERHEAT and 3 gyro's

Please tell my how you got your numbers?

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2011-12-11 11:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
DeBingJos wrote:
Please tell my how you got your numbers?


Hurricane http://i39.tinypic.com/28clqvp.jpg
Harbi http://i44.tinypic.com/3503yfo.jpg
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-12-11 14:36:34 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Please tell my how you got your numbers?


Hurricane http://i39.tinypic.com/28clqvp.jpg
Harbi http://i44.tinypic.com/3503yfo.jpg


Man, you're wasting your time on some troll!

Every non idiot knows if you want a good pvp fly minmatar.
And the proper way to fly Amarr ships is to fit ACs since lasers suck the juice.

I'm not saying minmatar is OP, they are just very versatile.
So when Amarr gets lower PG req. for lasers and changeable damage types I guess they will be just like Minnies or Gallentes now in PvP.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
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