Assembly Hall

I have been thinking...

Some points going forward:

1. You must realize that 80% to 90% of all Industry is done in Highsec, Including Mining.

2. People do not want to mine in Lowsec, Or they would. This is mostly due to the fact that Mining ships are "Defensless". And Mining in Low sec is a guaranteed death sentence (Which falls on you PvPers). So why would a miner do it? They wouldn't.

3. The EvE economy is fueled by Highsec Miners and Industrialists. CCP has stated this on Numerous occasions. Without the Hoighsec "Carebears". The Economy would collapse. You would be paying 1 billion ISK for a single round of ammo.

Only 5% - 20% of minerals, ships, and Goods on the market come from 0.0 and Lowsec, according to CCPs Manufacturing, Marketing and Industry Charts.

4. PvP Emergent Game-play is the real factor in a miners or industrialists decision not to go to low or null.



Lets look at number 1:

CCP has already confirmed that the vast majority of industry in EvE takes place in Highsec. The goal of the latest industrial patches was to attempt to shift the focus to Null and Lowsec, But failed Miserably because Industry in and of itself, is not the issue.

The issue is the Emergent game-play itself. Specifically, the PvPers. And the way industry happens from the back end IE: Mining.

A miner must get into a defenseless ship, in order to have a mineral income sufficient to supply a markets demands for minerals, which are then used to build ships, ammo etc with. An individual with any intelligence is not going to take said ship into a sector of space where the chance of loosing it is almost 100%.

Even if you offered ore that was worth 1 billion ISK a unit that an NPC station would buy. Very few would take you up on it.

Why?

Because retrospectively, PvPers would 100% Camp these materials and gank every single miner who came within 1 AU of it. Making the addition, Pointless. (Where the focus is concerned,( "Getting miners out of highsec").

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So Reward, has nothing to do with how one should approach this issue. Because the reward in this case to a miner, is NEVER worth the risk, due to the Multiplier of Emergent PvP game-play.

This is why the vast majority of everything is made in an area of space that has a worthwhile risk (The occasional suicide gank) Rather then in an Area of space where the risk is: "You will die almost 100% of the time".

The other reason is because mining takes "Time".. A LONG time.... To gather sufficient minerals to build even a single ship, your talking hours, if not days. (Depending). Null, and Low do not offer the "Time" availability to do this. Sure you can ninja mine, but it will take you 10X the amount of time to gather the same minerals the high-sec miner does.

Why? Again Because of "Emergent" PvP Game-paly. Miners make easy to kill and juicy targets. PvPers want easy to kill and Juicy targets (For the most part).

If this was not the case, there would be a lot less dead miners.



Point 2:


People do not mine in Low or Null (usually) because it is time consuming, and too risky. In lowsec Combat and PvP is part of survival, so it is asinine to expect someone to go to said space, knowing they have no ability to defend themselves in the ship "Required" to mine ore in the vast quantities needed to supply a stable market.

Give Miners ships with Fat tanks and the ability to pump out DPS, and Miners will start going into low and Null to mine. But then many PvPers would have an issue with this, because then it would be a risk to them to try and kill them.

It is blatantly clear that many pvpers only enjoy PvP when they are not at risk.

For example look at the Old Battle Hulk, Used by many miners in lowsec and null once it was discovered that it could kill a battle-cruiser if fitted properly. PvPers sent an outrage of 1000's of posts to the forums "Demanding CCP Nerf the hulk so it couldn't kill them anymore and they could gank in peace again"....

I mean really people..... Really.... Either you want miners in low and null or you don't... Which is it?

I think you just want easy kills.



Point 3

The economy in EvE is a fluid monstrosity, fueled by players from everywhere right?.... Wrong.

80% Of everything created, Built or made in EvE, is exported from highsec. CCP already confirmed this, and again was the reason for some of the industrial changes which those of us who are actual Industrialist and deal witht he EvE economy, marketing and such things every day, told CCP would not solve the Issue, we even told them what issues it would create, and yet CCP went ahead with it. Lo and Behold...

We told you so never says it enough.

What did we tell CCP?

* It would not make miners and industrialists move because industry was not at the core the issue stopping them from going to null and low to mine and do such.

* It would cause prices to skyrocket (which it has).

* PvPers would still ***** about how highsec miners need to get into 0.0 and lowsec. (Which they do f).

> Continued

And your post shows you're not used to doing that.


1. Because it is cheaper to build in highsec. This is the only reason, and had you a grasp on how the economy of null works, you would know this.

2. There is nothing in lowsec you cannot get in highsec or null a lot safer. This is not the fault of the PvPers, this is because there's nothing special to mine in lowsec. The day CCP adds something to lowsec that can't be mined anywhere else, people will start mining there.

3 and 4. These should not have been two seperate points as 4 is the point while 3 is just supportive. First off, lowsec and null are two completely different entities, which you would know had you ever left highsec. I've already covered why there isn't more mining in lowsec.

The reason there isn't more mining in null is really the fault of the coalitions. Do not take this as a grrr goons post. Try joining any of the major sov holding alliances as an industrialist and you'll know what I mean. The main coalitions already have their industrial base, and don't want to let anyone else in. If you want to mine in null, you're relegated to the renter corps, which live in the poor systems that are constantly patrolled by neuts and reds that know the sov holders don't care about their renters.

Oh, about you little comment about less dead miners, here's some numbers for you:

Hulk: 10
Mackinaw: 20
Skiff: 4
Covetor: 14
Retriever: 62
Procurer: 6
Total: 116

This is the number of mining barges and exhumers zkill has listed as killed in highsec in the 24 hour period of August 29, 2014. This is a bit under half the total number of mining barges and exhumers killed total in the same time period, and a minute fraction of the total kills.

You've been doing a lot of posting lately trying to get every method of gameplay you don't like banned. Unfortunatly for you, the more you post, the more it becomes obvious you really don't know what you're talking about.

From that rant, it's quite obvious you haven't.

1. Now we get to the 'my main' post. I call bulls**t on this. Post on your main, I do. I've lived in null, both in sov holding alliances and in renter corps, something you have no experience in from the way you post. Then again, you also claim to be an IT guy...

2. Train another level in Reading Comprehension. Note the phrase I used, "..you cannot get in highsec or null a lot safer." Again, there's nothing you can mine in lowsec that you can't get elsewhere. This supposed emergent PvP of your's would not stop the intelligent miners if there was anything worth mining in lowsec. As for your claim lowsec ores are about to get buffed, prove it. I read the devblogs and have seen nothing to support your claim.

3. The vast majority that do not mine in null do so by choice, wether misinformed on the danger, because they don't want to be in renter corps, or simply don't want to live in null. It is still their choice and generally not the fault of the big scary PvPers.

4. Since you want to bring in your ban-ISBoxer thread, know this. It is your opinion ISBoxing is botting. Since this is CCP's game, it is their opinion that matters, not your's.

Armed mining barges have already been covered in F&I to death, so no, for all the same reasons as previously posted in those threads.

The reason your alliance doesn't let your supposed main post on forums is because they don't want to be associated with shiptoasts like your's. Your alliance probably also has a rule saying you can't post with alts either, most with that rule do.

Lastly, it's CCP's allows ISBoxer because what it does can be done with pure hardware, this was demonstrated to get ISBoxer unbanned in the first place. Bet you didn't know ISBoxer was banned from EvE at one time. Had you read that entire thread, you would know this. Your whiney examples are the oddities, not the norm for ISBoxer users. But that's another thread, and since alll of this thread has already been covered in other threads, time for it to be locked.

But back on topic, Please enlighten me as to why Armed Mining barges are a bad Idea? To much of a risk to the ganker? Poor PvP pilot afraid to lose his ship.... To a carebear?

Because it is already armed. Every mining ship has a drone bay, what more do you want for a mining ship? A Skiff can tank so much that some people use it to gank gankers, several kills on the killboards to support this, many without concord being involved. Really, this thread is nothing more than a now unstealthed nerf ganking thread.

By the way, a PvPer is never afraid to lose his ship. If he was, he wouldn't be a PvPer.

Show me a ganking frigate that does 500-700 dps.

What? You want a mining barge capable of entry level battleship damage? Battlecruiser? Apparently the concept of Mining Barge simply eludes your grasp. What you're asking for is the equivalent of putting this on this.

Your errors are further compounded by your apparent lack of comprehension as to how combat works in EvE. According to you, DPS is everything, and being able to tank incoming damage is meaningless. I put ShahFluffers procurer fit into EFT and my lowest skilled mining alt can get 64k EHP out of it. How long do you think it'll take a full ganked fit frigate to deplete 64k EHP? Keep in mind a full ganked fit frigate has no tank to speak of, so will be very vulnerable to the flight of light drones unleashed by the procurer.


Yes, this is exactly, right. Not only that, it's how CCP ******* designed it after the most recent change to mining barges.


Right. Let me say it again, because you're obviously having difficulty understanding this simple concept. It is a Mining ship, not a combat ship.


No, they will not likely add an armed mining vessel. The mining vessels currently designed to actually engage in combat are very well done, when you consider that they're not combat vessels.

It's the latter. The OP also has a bug up their proverbial, over ISBoxer.

But as yet, has failed to come up with any coherent argument on anything. Just a lot of really bad shiptoasting.