These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

War Decs as a griefing tool

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#221 - 2014-08-29 11:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Lucas Kell wrote:
Let's fail to attract new players who aren't anti-social soloists and see how it all goes.


Except it hasnt failed to do that.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Valkin Mordirc
#222 - 2014-08-29 11:38:06 UTC
Quote:
Yes, but what it normally does is provide you with easy targets, right? You don't want NPC corps so no one can avoid you like that


People avoid me in EVE all the time, insta-undocks, moving to solitude, staying docked, or located me and staying as far as they can.


It's not hard to avoid a wartargets. Dropping to a NPC corp is a problem, because it encourages anti-social behaviour. Something that EVE is entierly against. If EVE catered to that sorta gameplay ideology I wouldn't be playing the game. Nor would a lot of other people.


I play EVE because it's different from WoW. I don't want it to become it.
#DeleteTheWeak
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#223 - 2014-08-29 11:38:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
I was wondering when Lucas would find this thread. Took longer than I expected.
Been busy :D

baltec1 wrote:
Go look at all of those other MMOs that have come and died over the last decade, they would kill for EVEs record on keeping players.
Another overused and badly thought out argument. Funny thing is that WoW caters to the antisocial solo carebears more than most other games and yet has more players than EVE and a long standing playerbase, so clearly the key to MMOs doesn't lie in how unfriendly it is to carebears.



WoW, the game that has bled several million subs in the last year alone.

EVE continues to buck the trend because it does not go after the instant gratification and handholding crowd.
Prince Kobol
#224 - 2014-08-29 11:45:40 UTC
Eve's problem is not finding new players, if anything the fact that after 11 years it is still attracting new players is a great sign, the problem Eve has is keeping them.

NPC's Corps are part of that problem.

NPC Corps do not promote player interaction, if anything they do the complete opposite.

One of Eve's biggest asset is its community, its interacting with other players. The most enjoyment you can have in Eve is when you are interacting with other players, regardless of what part of space you are in.

Think about all those stories that make the press, those stories that attract new players, how many of them involve NPC players?

NPC Corps in no way promote interaction with other players.

Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#225 - 2014-08-29 11:55:01 UTC
This seems as relevant here as it was in its original thread;

CCP Falcon wrote:
Tam Althor wrote:
Remember CCP Falcon, the level of protection that concord provides players is the same level of job protection you have when the high sec players decide to quit. Will you survive the next 20% layoff when it happens?


I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now.

Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that.

Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on.

That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.

EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe.

Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight Smile


"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#226 - 2014-08-29 12:33:22 UTC
if you nerf npc corps or remove them then you need to give the people who dont want war a counter to wardecs because the only real counter to wardecs is npc corps and nearly everything in this game has a counter of some sort, in war people who dont want to fight (women/children/non military) usually just move out of the warzone for safety because making a plumber fight a marine just wouldnt work.

npc corps maybe a problem but if you nerf them too much then nobody will undock and that will just cause all sorts of problems for alot/all of the parts of the game including markets, logistics etc.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#227 - 2014-08-29 12:41:42 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
if you nerf npc corps or remove them then you need to give the people who dont want war a counter to wardecs because the only real counter to wardecs is npc corps and nearly everything in this game has a counter of some sort, in war people who dont want to fight (women/children/non military) usually just move out of the warzone for safety because making a plumber fight a marine just wouldnt work.

npc corps maybe a problem but if you nerf them too much then nobody will undock and that will just cause all sorts of problems for alot/all of the parts of the game including markets, logistics etc.


The problem is the Wardec mechanics.

If you get rid of NPC corps, get rid of them too

That said, wtf are children doing on a spaceship in the first place.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Prince Kobol
#228 - 2014-08-29 12:50:44 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
if you nerf npc corps or remove them then you need to give the people who dont want war a counter to wardecs because the only real counter to wardecs is npc corps and nearly everything in this game has a counter of some sort, in war people who dont want to fight (women/children/non military) usually just move out of the warzone for safety because making a plumber fight a marine just wouldnt work.

npc corps maybe a problem but if you nerf them too much then nobody will undock and that will just cause all sorts of problems for alot/all of the parts of the game including markets, logistics etc.



Ramona has already pointed out there any many alternatives. The problem is that people will usually take the easiest option which is dropping corps.

Also I am sorry to say that there are many people in Eve who run corps when they shouldn't.

There are many people in Eve who will tell there newer members just to drop corps instead of going out, buying a load of frigs, ventures whatever and having some fun.

Once a player joins a NPC corp they then realise that a player driven corp has very little advantage over a NPC corp.

Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#229 - 2014-08-29 12:52:30 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
if you nerf npc corps or remove them then you need to give the people who dont want war a counter to wardecs because the only real counter to wardecs is npc corps and nearly everything in this game has a counter of some sort, in war people who dont want to fight (women/children/non military) usually just move out of the warzone for safety because making a plumber fight a marine just wouldnt work.

npc corps maybe a problem but if you nerf them too much then nobody will undock and that will just cause all sorts of problems for alot/all of the parts of the game including markets, logistics etc.



Ramona has already pointed out there any many alternatives. The problem is that people will usually take the easiest option which is dropping corps.

Also I am sorry to say that there are many people in Eve who run corps when they shouldn't.

There are many people in Eve who will tell there newer members just to drop corps instead of going out, buying a load of frigs, ventures whatever and having some fun.

Once a player joins a NPC corp they then realise that a player driven corp has very little advantage over a NPC corp.



One advantage though is not having to listen to the stream of utter garbage in NPC Corp Chat

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#230 - 2014-08-29 12:53:43 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
if you nerf npc corps or remove them then you need to give the people who dont want war a counter to wardecs because the only real counter to wardecs is npc corps and nearly everything in this game has a counter of some sort, in war people who dont want to fight (women/children/non military) usually just move out of the warzone for safety because making a plumber fight a marine just wouldnt work.

npc corps maybe a problem but if you nerf them too much then nobody will undock and that will just cause all sorts of problems for alot/all of the parts of the game including markets, logistics etc.


The problem is the Wardec mechanics.

If you get rid of NPC corps, get rid of them too

That said, wtf are children doing on a spaceship in the first place.


children are on spaceships doing some stuff

yeah if you remove one remove the other then your kinda making highsec even more safe and people will cry

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#231 - 2014-08-29 12:59:57 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:


children are on spaceships doing some stuff
Shocked

Lan Wang wrote:
yeah if you remove one remove the other then your kinda making highsec even more safe and people will cry


Not really.

There's plenty of ways to kill that dont involve wasting your isk on a Dec.

Let me ask you this, though;

If everyone evaded Wardecs, whether by dropping corp or by using better means, such as Active Evasion and Cloaking, would it make Highsec even more "safe"?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#232 - 2014-08-29 13:00:35 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
if you nerf npc corps or remove them then you need to give the people who dont want war a counter to wardecs because the only real counter to wardecs is npc corps and nearly everything in this game has a counter of some sort, in war people who dont want to fight (women/children/non military) usually just move out of the warzone for safety because making a plumber fight a marine just wouldnt work.

npc corps maybe a problem but if you nerf them too much then nobody will undock and that will just cause all sorts of problems for alot/all of the parts of the game including markets, logistics etc.



Ramona has already pointed out there any many alternatives. The problem is that people will usually take the easiest option which is dropping corps.

Also I am sorry to say that there are many people in Eve who run corps when they shouldn't.

There are many people in Eve who will tell there newer members just to drop corps instead of going out, buying a load of frigs, ventures whatever and having some fun.

Once a player joins a NPC corp they then realise that a player driven corp has very little advantage over a NPC corp.



but what use is a frigate if all your skills are all in mining/logistics, its forcing people to pvp when they cant or dont want to, maybe the ceos said you can go fight or the only other option is a npc corp, or maybe these people have tried to fight before and lost miserably so they no longer want to try, you and i know pvp aint the easiest especially against dedicated pvp players, you dont put a plumber up against a marine and expect the plumber to win, i agree there is alot of people who shouldnt have corps but there is also alot of people who shouldnt be picking on the new guys

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#233 - 2014-08-29 13:00:43 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
you chose to tell me to find something I never said.
Lucas Kell wrote:
Of course they do. You see it all the time! People throwing around "entitled carbears" and demanding the destruction of NPC corps, to force people to fight..
Ok dude, whatever you say.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Please link me to one single place where someone genuinely asking for help (not for the game to be changed around his wishes) was called an entitled carebear.
OK, so show me where in those quotes I stated that a noob would come along genuinely asking for help then get called an entitled carebear. To prove what I actually said is easy. Type entitled carebear into the search and watch the results appear.

Aaaaannnd... Dunked.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#234 - 2014-08-29 13:02:20 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Let's fail to attract new players who aren't anti-social soloists and see how it all goes.
Except it hasn't failed to do that.
Prove it.
ACU is on the decline, CCP is downsizing, and sub numbers are not being given out this year like in previous years.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#235 - 2014-08-29 13:08:34 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
People avoid me in EVE all the time, insta-undocks, moving to solitude, staying docked, or located me and staying as far as they can.

It's not hard to avoid a wartargets. Dropping to a NPC corp is a problem, because it encourages anti-social behaviour. Something that EVE is entierly against. If EVE catered to that sorta gameplay ideology I wouldn't be playing the game. Nor would a lot of other people.

I play EVE because it's different from WoW. I don't want it to become it.
LOL
Being in an NPC corp is arguably MORE social than being in a solo alt corp. Hell, I've infiltrated actual highsec corps with less going on than in NPC corps. So no, NPC corps are not the problem. People that don't want to be fodder for people like you will find ways not to, and the more of those ways that get removed, the less likely they are to stick around.

And don't lie, yes you would. People always pull out the "I wouldn't play" card, but it's bull. You kick and scream, but in the end you'd stick around. To be honest, it doesn't even make sense as to why you would even want to leave. Adding a load of people who are anti-socials doesn't mean you couldn't continue to play socially, it just means there'd be extra people around

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#236 - 2014-08-29 13:09:25 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Let's fail to attract new players who aren't anti-social soloists and see how it all goes.
Except it hasn't failed to do that.
Prove it.
ACU is on the decline, CCP is downsizing, and sub numbers are not being given out this year like in previous years.


None of these figures contain the data you are using in your argument.

You are saying that social free-thinkers are on the decline in Eve, therefore its up to you to provide evidence to support your position.

I have recruited 7 new players, and got 2 old players to resub, in the last 9 months. I have seen 1 person in my circle who has had to quit (due to RL issues, btw not game chnages), and thats the data Im using because to me its first hand.

None of these people are anti-social soloists. So by my own admittedly small study group, I hold that numbers are increasing.

No need to answer if you cant be bothered btw, I know you will again say I ask the impossible by simply asking you to support your position.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Prince Kobol
#237 - 2014-08-29 13:11:36 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:


but what use is a frigate if all your skills are all in mining/logistics, its forcing people to pvp when they cant or dont want to, maybe the ceos said you can go fight or the only other option is a npc corp, or maybe these people have tried to fight before and lost miserably so they no longer want to try, you and i know pvp aint the easiest especially against dedicated pvp players, you dont put a plumber up against a marine and expect the plumber to win, i agree there is alot of people who shouldnt have corps but there is also alot of people who shouldnt be picking on the new guys



This is the attitude which kills the game. I am not picking directly on you but its something read and here a lot.

I have done the war deccing thing and I've experience guys in nothing but frigs and ventures trying to bring the fight to us and you know what, I had nothing but respect for them. In fact afterwards we convo'ed them, gave them some isk to recover there losses and gave them advice.

Its these types of players that will stick with Eve for years because they understand what the game is about and accept that this just a game, the ships they fly are just pixels and its no damn fun just to stay docked up.

I bet that most people feel the same way, that they respect guys who fight them no matter what ships they bring or skills they have.

You often read about people who have ventured in low sec or have tried to fight being given isk and advice afterwards because those more experience players respect that they are trying and want people like that to stay in the game.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#238 - 2014-08-29 13:11:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
WoW, the game that has bled several million subs in the last year alone.

EVE continues to buck the trend because it does not go after the instant gratification and handholding crowd.
Yes, WoW, the game that has bled more than the entire subscriber base of EVE in the last year alone and continues to be the largest subscription MMO on the market.

And at no point am I saying EVE should be WoW, but they might find they have more of a market share if they at least tried to appeal to the more casual market. There's room for both market to coexist, people just have to be a bit more open minded than they currently are.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#239 - 2014-08-29 13:14:05 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
[]OK, so show me where in those quotes I stated that a noob would come along genuinely asking for help then get called an entitled carebear. To prove what I actually said is easy.


I just did it and now you are arguing black is white.

WTF is wrong with you today? You usually talk sense but now you are Slavosing and I just dont get it

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#240 - 2014-08-29 13:14:49 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Eve's problem is not finding new players, if anything the fact that after 11 years it is still attracting new players is a great sign, the problem Eve has is keeping them.

NPC's Corps are part of that problem.

NPC Corps do not promote player interaction, if anything they do the complete opposite.

One of Eve's biggest asset is its community, its interacting with other players. The most enjoyment you can have in Eve is when you are interacting with other players, regardless of what part of space you are in.

Think about all those stories that make the press, those stories that attract new players, how many of them involve NPC players?

NPC Corps in no way promote interaction with other players.
Totally agree. Unfortunately, even without NPC corps, player corps cannot promote player interaction, since the moment people try to work together, they get awoxed, wardecced and trolled into disbandment. If every time someone tried to climb a ladder you kick them in the face, they will not continue to try to climb that ladder. If they didn't have NPC corps to fall back to they would simply leave.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.