Warfare & Tactics

Your honesty is appreciated. And I have used plexing alts to help get fights but I have found that to the extent I wanted to really use them to find fights they actually finished very few plexes.



I am not doing anything to get pvp now. So yeah your likely doing more. My favorite pvp is/was in and around plexes. When I was after pvp I would go to busy systems open a plex and see if anyone would come. If not I would leave. Rarely would I bother finishing the plex. If I saw plexes open I would dscan to see if someone was running them and warp in on them - usually in a t1 frig but some other stuff as well. They would usually bail and I would rarely want to stay to finish the plex. (if the system was busy enough and the timer had been run down I might stick it out a bit) If they fought and I won I would rarely stay to finish the plex. From a pvp perspective my time was always better spent moving on to the next system instead of sitting there orbitting the button hoping someone will notice me. But of course 99% of the enemies who would fight me, never even knew I was there so why sit there? Sure someone might roll in but I found I got more fights by leaving the plex than staying.

My point: there is a trade off of how much pvp you get versus how much occupancy you gain. I think reducing that trade off as much as possible would be good.

I am not at all surprised you or other Galllente have plexing alts. I have seen them around the warzone and since the gallente alts are often dplexing relatively low contested systems I know they aren't farmers from people unconnected with faction war. I think I am different from most people because I care more about the effect alt plexers have on occupancy than the isk they get or don't get. If gallente didn't have alt plexers they would be lucky to be at tier 2.

Fixed. PvP usually drops off significantly when the other side decides they can't win. Nothing you can do about it tbh. If one side goes for the throat and overships to win FW, then fights are going to drop off.

We knew that going in, and sometimes going for the win is worth the decrease in PvP. You'll see some in Gallente Militia complain about it, but it's not like we're bent on destroying the warzone for months - just a few days.

Caldari will be back, and I hope they try to kick us in the throat. The game is more fun when both sides don't let up.

As I was in cal mil the biggest part of cal mil simply refused to plex - it was useless to explain the mechanic to them.

They only came to the mili to fight.

That was stupid in an occupancy point of view - but pertinent in a gamers point of view.

The gamer lost in the long run, of course. The only thing that stayed was the farmer.


Vesh, I totally agree with you - all this points we stressed for years now. That is what I called it the asymmetry of the four factions - the amarr problem in general was that the minmatars only cared for farming.

FW would have been far more interesting with an amarr-gal front and cals farming the minmatars and vice versa.

The biggest difference are of course the missions and the lay of the land. Stupid to make the warzones that differnet.

Imagine CCP would add a new gate and new star systems to nenna.

Yeah whatever. We're generating more kills now than we ever did before. The difference between then and now are:
1. BCs don't rule the game (rebalancing efforts)
2. BS's cost too damn much - Domis used to be 42mil. Now they are 200 mil.
3. All large ship fleets are really just targets waiting to be hot dropped nowadays.
4. Plexes have been skewed from Dessie/Cruiser/BC to Frig/(Dessie or T2 Frigate)/ T2 Cruiser.

Will it make you feel better to know that Andre and Andrea are my plexing alts and they have 100M and 40M skill points respectively? Do you still consider them plexing alts?

What if they don't run but stay and die in naked hulls cuz they are AFK and part of their income stream is selling kill rights?

I'm being trolled right? Are you jumping your bash fleet in from hi-sec/non-fw lowsec and travelling 10 jumps to flip a system? Are you actually suggesting that Calmill position themselves around the edges of the map in isolated numbers and push in against our internal lines of defence? Do you know how far it is from Yvangier to Karjataimon? From Mara to Mantenault? Cearain, this is getting stupid and again your ignorance of both the important subtleties in FW and general strategic good sense is showing.



Aw ****, stop doing what you're doing because CCP didn't write in black and white that you should try and occupy the best systems in the warzone. It's called a strategic imperative, when the opposing militia lives closer to you, the amount of fighting in your home system you have to do goes up. When the activity levels in your home go up, more of your pilots are curtailed from roaming further afield, aka your area of control (effective control) shrinks.

The statement, that an opposing militia HQ system present does not increase resistance to efforts to flip the surrounding area, is patently, and obviously ludicrous. To argue that the presence of an enemy home base in the area wont have any effect on the contested rates nearby is again, stunningly myopic. Lest we even bring up pipe and gateway systems (Eha, Okkamon, Heyd, Kehjar etc etc.)

If you really want to get pedantic about this almost all of the CCP information on FW, and everything the common person would understand about "us versus them" strategy games heavily implies if not leaves as the only logical conclusion that you should indeed take all of enemy space. Our progress bar shows 371/606 for our measure of warzone control, "warzone control," fyi, is another way to say "your control of the warzone." How could having every system not be the ultimate fulfillment of "warzone control" or the apparent full scale 606/606? Your not just getting the in-game details wrong, but your analysis relies on incredible perversions of what everyone commonly understands strategy games to entail.



lol



This is a really dumb tactic, coincidentally its pretty much what Calmill does and got them in this position to begin with. Again, see reference above to your need to actually look at the map of our WZ and to educate yourself on just the basics of strategy and tactics, aka, don't leave your forces in tiny isolated concentrations that can't support one another waiting to be crushed by someone who "gets" it.

Someone "getting it" is not "AHA Crosi admits alts have an effect!"

Here's the rub of the issue, none of us believe plexing alts have zero influence. We just don't take them to be the alpha and omega of our analysis, we prefer more robust frameworks that incorporate more than one causal explanation. For instance in about ten pages of your diatribe across three seperate threads, I doubt you have spared even a single paragraph towards the strategic decisions Calmill made throughout the year defending and taking systems, or even a sentence towards the fits and doctrines that Calmill use, this despite those reasons being the first proffered by the Caldari themselves. According to your own words, both the contours of the map and the amount of isk one faction uses are also irrelevant. The problem when you build a snarky worldview based on one metric and/or thought bubble is your theory lacks explanatory power, I have highlighted this issue below for you in much the same way an undergrad professor would.



The above paragraphs explanatory power is effectively zero if not purposefully misleading, yet it represents the capstone of your thoughts.

As to your random numbers about subscribers EvE has ever had, or attempts to appeal to the unverifiable majority, I again offer my own experiences. A big system siege last year would be 100 people in local, this year a big one is closer to 200 and some have sat in the 2-300 range for periods of the day. B-5 only had 2100 its self, FW corps remain littered throughout the top ten ranking on zkill for activity and I personally can't reship fast enough or have more fun. Its about defining your own content, I think the sooner you realize that, the less bitter you will seem to this forum.

What you are complaining about is players, not game mechanics.

If people want to plex in pve fits and run away from fights there is nothing you or i can do to stop them - apart from forcing them to stay out of the plexes by having a presence there or getting better at killing them.

CCP could kill FW and remove LP from plexing, then station lockouts would be the only incentive to fight occupancy. No more farmers. All systems would be completely ignored apart from a handful of well placed station systems.

But i would rather take simple steps to curtail farmers, like dplexing alts, than drastic measures which make FW a less viable place to play for both new and old players. For me, any mechanic that puts ships in space has its fundamentals in order.

You obviously have some drastic tunnel vision that prevents you from seeing a bigger picture, i know pointing this out will not help. I dont even know if you care about the bigger picture, or if you have just become so focused on debating minutia for its own sake.

Sorry for disturbing you, ill let you get back to fixating on non/minor problems.

I don't blame the players for playing this game however they like. It is a sandbox.

But CCP can and does change the mechanics to encourage certain behavior an discourage other behavior. For example, they wanted offensive plexers to have weapon systems so they required the rats to be killed. You could still enter the offensive plex without the ability to do damage but you won't accomplish much.


Here I want them to encourage the behavior of staying and fighting for a plex instead of just running and hiding in a new system to plex.


With timer rollbacks yes, of course, people can still use pve fits and warp out. But they will then lose time on the plex. Thus that behavior will have a disadvantage relative to the person who stays and fights. I'm not trying to completely prevent behavior like a bubble that prevents warping. I am trying instead to start weighing the occupancy war more in favor of the pvpers. This means that corps who fight for occupancy will value a good pvper more than a person who just has multiple accounts and rabbit plexes.





You know I think I am about the only person who doesn't really care that much about how much isk/p is in fw. I used to care more but not really anymore. I have done plexing with lp, and without, and on the whole I think adding some lp was an improvement. But really how much lp for this or that and at what tier really doesn't concern me. I just want the game the occupancy war to be fun. And for me that means to make it a pvp haven. If we can gain isk in the meantime great if not then I would buy plex or do something else to support my pvp. As someone who has been playing this game for years I have more isk than worthy things to spend it on.

I am much more interested in how fun the game is to play than how much isk I can make. If I am having a blast playing the game then I am glad to spend an extra 20 bucks every now and then to buy a plex and get more ships.

BTW I dont think gallente won due to "farmers." I know the plexers were often in low contested systems that really don't pay much.



No problem your entitled to your opinion and I have thick skin.

Yep I want more than ships in space. I want more fighting and less warping around.

I think you miss the big picture, when you wring your hands over how much isk this or that activity brings. Isk can only be used in game. If there is nothing fun to do in the game than what is the point? My focus is on making fw more fun and less about creating alts to rabbit plex. For me the funnest thing in eve is the pvp in and around plexes. So mechanics that encourage that are what I push for.

Amusingly enough... with all the farming going on there is still more fighting in FW/low sec than in Null. Hell, one member of my FW alt's corp had over 500 kills in one month.


God how I loathe nullbears....



I think CCP needs to rethink the way they are going about the game. Nullsec has turned into a supremely secure HS where every corp/alliance in 50 jumps is blued up. HS has turned into a ******* battle dome where wardeck corps sit on gates and stations all day doing nothing but popping members of the hundreds of corps they deck per day, and LS is a farm ground for alts.

The only place that is somewhat decent, imo, is WH's. Sadly CCP has turned their gaze towards WH's and is now completely ******* them up, and I assume it will just continue down a path to where we will be able to toss sov in our holes, and cyno in 100000000000 man fleets from anywhere in the universe.